mashmaster 783 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Our pack was looking at potential campouts for next year and someone came up with the idea to tent camp at a campground at a beach not far from us. We have the opportunity to have a marine biologist run a great program for the boys. My question is about camping at the campground at the beach. It has all the necessary facilities for council to approve it, but I don't see anything in the guide to safe scouting about whether we can do it or not. I understand the boys can't go swimming in the water, but is it just best to stay away because the boys will be drawn to the water? Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4342 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 You are the expert on your boys (and their parents). There is nothing on paper that says you shouldn't do this. Link to post Share on other sites
Yadkin 10 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 I can't find any thing in G2SS that would prohibit it either. But I would research and follow all BSA Safe Swim Defense rules closely with Cubs or even Boy Scouts in the ocean. Link to post Share on other sites
Yadkin 10 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 I think it would be a great trip, we have discussed camping at the beach also. Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 As one who has been involved in multiple troops, all were into water trips. We always did the sandbar camping thingy where there were no "facilities", water, etc. - totally primitive camping. We did teach the boys to build their own latrines, something that has basically dropped out of scouting literature, but was one of the roster items when I was a kid. We didn't do the safe-swim processes because the rivers with sandbars tend to be quite shallow and finding a place in the river where the water was over their head was quite difficult to do. The boys were all swimmers (BSA tested) and wore floatation devices whenever they were within 5' of the water. They could be "swimming", fishing, or canoeing/kayaking. Didn't make any difference, you wore the floatation. Been doing that for 30+ years, never had an issue. Anyone that broke the rules, simply didn't participate anymore in such "risky" adventures. Had the SM's son think he was above the rules and went swimming without his floatation. SM thought it was "no big deal" until the next trip planned couldn't find an ASM or second leader/parent of any kind willing to take the risk if his boy were to go on the trip. He was told if he wanted to take a family outing with his son and take the responsibility of watching out for him, that's fine. But as a scouting activity, the rules were there for a reason and if the SM decided it was a "family" outing, he could take his wife as a backup none of us wanted any part of it. And yes, I have seen an ASM and his wife take the scouts out on water activities where the rules didn't apply, but as SM these outings were never recorded as scout outings. No travel permits, etc. were filled out and he was on his own. Stosh 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh 3452 Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Oh, by the way, this is the scenario I used for the final campout of my Webelos II boys before moving on into Boy Scouts. A few modifications, i.e. canoed 15 minutes out to a no-facilities island, camped for the weekend, canoed back home. Boys loved it, and so did the dads. Stosh Link to post Share on other sites
Hueymungus 73 Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Well, when the tide comes in, then you will be in deep water. So, I would say no. Link to post Share on other sites
Tampa Turtle 1011 Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 We do this often. You do need to keep an eye on the boys. The main issues seem to be getting shade,sunburn, potable water, and DIY latrines ('Pack it Out'). We require PFD's on the Canoe and Kayaks out even if there is only 12 inches of water. These trips are youth planned. (adults are mostly involved for boat toting and safety requirements) Safety wise I do sweat these trips out. Another challenge is the more primitive beach trips a lot of the older boys seem to have a problem with the lack of entertainment...don't know how to relax. The fishing types are pretty happy. One time we worked on the Sailing MB and that was a big hit. Also a beach and in the water obstacle course. Another issue is that some dad's who come along on these trips think because it is a beach trip it is Margaritaville time--I don't want to mix water+scouts+booze. I know there is always a prohibition but it seems to need more reinforcement on these trips. The times we have camped on a sandbar we always check in with the Coast Guard/Ranger when relevant so they know we are out there in case some weird weather event comes up. If it is a pretty long haul over open water we will have a motorized chase boat or two in case we need to do a rescue or emergency transport. We once camped on the east coast of florida and were in the tropical storm edge of a hurricane when it changed course. Sleeping in a Hammock in 35 mph gusts was an educational (and religious) experience. Needless to say some boys learned the value of staking their tents, The boys kayaking around an island one time and discovering the topless girls was another memorable trip. I say plan carefully and go for it. Link to post Share on other sites
perdidochas 658 Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Our pack was looking at potential campouts for next year and someone came up with the idea to tent camp at a campground at a beach not far from us. We have the opportunity to have a marine biologist run a great program for the boys. My question is about camping at the campground at the beach. It has all the necessary facilities for council to approve it, but I don't see anything in the guide to safe scouting about whether we can do it or not. I understand the boys can't go swimming in the water, but is it just best to stay away because the boys will be drawn to the water? Why can't the boys swim in the water? Take the Safe Swim Defense course. Link to post Share on other sites
mashmaster 783 Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 Why can't the boys swim in the water? Take the Safe Swim Defense course. My understanding is that you have to be able to see the bottom. Hard to do in the gulf. Link to post Share on other sites
perdidochas 658 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Read again. The depth limit is lower in turbid water (8 ft rather than 12), but there is no rule about seeing the bottom They can't do underwater swimming either. Here's the G2ss Safe Swim rules on water conditions. Safe Area All swimming areas must be carefully inspected and prepared for safety prior to each activity. Water depth, quality, temperature, movement, and clarity are important considerations. Hazards must be eliminated or isolated by conspicuous markings and discussed with participants. Controlled Access: There must be safe areas for all participating ability groups to enter and leave the water. Swimming areas of appropriate depth must be defined for each ability group. The entire area must be within easy reach of designated rescue personnel. The area must be clear of boat traffic, surfing, or other nonswimming activities. Bottom Conditions and Depth: The bottom must be clear of trees and debris. Abrupt changes in depth are not allowed in the nonswimmer area. Isolated underwater hazards should be marked with floats. Rescue personnel must be able to easily reach the bottom. Maximum recommended water depth in clear water is 12 feet. Maximum water depth in turbid water is 8 feet. Visibility: Underwater swimming and diving are prohibited in turbid water. Turbid water exists when a swimmer treading water cannot see his feet. Swimming at night is allowed only in areas with water clarity and lighting sufficient for good visibility both above and below the surface. Diving and Elevated Entry: Diving is permitted only into clear, unobstructed water from heights no greater than 40 inches. Water depth must be at least 7 feet. Bottom depth contours below diving boards and elevated surfaces require greater water depths and must conform to state regulations. Persons should not jump into water from heights greater than they are tall, and should jump only into water chest deep or greater with minimal risk from contact with the bottom. No elevated entry is permitted where the person must clear any obstacle, including land. Water Temperature: Comfortable water temperature for swimming is near 80 degrees. Activity in water at 70 degrees or less should be of limited duration and closely monitored for negative effects of chilling. Water Quality: Bodies of stagnant, foul water, areas with significant algae or foam, or areas polluted by livestock or waterfowl should be avoided. Comply with any signs posted by local health authorities. Swimming is not allowed in swimming pools with green, murky, or cloudy water. Moving Water: Participants should be able to easily regain and maintain their footing in currents or waves. Areas with large waves, swiftly flowing currents, or moderate currents that flow toward the open sea or into areas of danger should be avoided. Weather: Participants should be moved from the water to a position of safety whenever lightning or thunder threatens. Wait at least 30 minutes after the last lightning flash or thunder before leaving shelter. Take precautions to prevent sunburn, dehydration, and hypothermia. Life Jacket Use: Swimming in clear water over 12 feet deep, in turbid water over 8 feet deep, or in flowing water may be allowed if all participants wear properly fitted, Coast Guard–approved life jackets and the supervisor determines that swimming with life jackets is safe under the circumstances. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss02.aspx#d Link to post Share on other sites
koolaidman 110 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 How many cubs are we talking about here? Do the adults listen and follow directions? Is there one person in the pack agreeable to taking on responsibility of overseeing the entire swim operation? Link to post Share on other sites
Rick_in_CA 401 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 The problem with swimming at the beach is (emphases are mine): The nonswimmer area should be no more than waist to chest deep and should be enclosed by physical boundaries such as the shore, a pier, or lines. The enclosed beginner area should contain water of standing depth and may extend to depths just over the head. The swimmer area may be up to 12 feet in depth in clear water and should be defined by floats or other markers. How do you rope off areas in the surf??? When I asked the council about how to deal with those requirements at the beach, the answer was "you can't". Link to post Share on other sites
mashmaster 783 Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 It looks potentially doable. I'll have to be rigorous on having people trained and controlled on following the rules. Sounds like non-swimmers are not feasable in the surf though. So they will have to dig sand castles. Link to post Share on other sites
jpstodwftexas 72 Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Our pack was looking at potential campouts for next year and someone came up with the idea to tent camp at a campground at a beach not far from us. We have the opportunity to have a marine biologist run a great program for the boys. My question is about camping at the campground at the beach. It has all the necessary facilities for council to approve it, but I don't see anything in the guide to safe scouting about whether we can do it or not. I understand the boys can't go swimming in the water, but is it just best to stay away because the boys will be drawn to the water? First I am gonna address the Camping Issue.....You Can Camping at the Beach is no Different than Camping at a Camp Area with a Pool, a Stream, A River, or Lake.. To conduct Water Activities you will Need Adults with all the Necessary BSA Training. [h=2][/h] Link to post Share on other sites
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