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Placement of Webelos colors and patrol patch

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  • Placement of Webelos colors and patrol patch

    Hi all,

    Had this discussion with several Scouters and could not come to a consensus. What is the proper placement for items on the boys' right sleeve?

    Unfortunately, the Uniform Inspection Sheet by BSA is lacking in this area. For one thing, they do not show the patrol patch on the different right sleeve options. Second, if you look closely at the boy in the middle on page 1, the colors seem to be place directly over the patrol patch.

    See link for inspection sheet from BSA:
    https://www.scoutstuff.org/media/con...pdfs/34760.pdf

    My opinion of what makes sense: US Flag, patrol patch directly below, Webelos colors directly below that, then a JTE patch (if present) would have to be overlapped by the colors. Is that correct?

    Second question: The council is always coming out with special edition CSP patches, for our Rendezvous (big camporee that happens every four years), if you contribute a certain amount to Friends of Scouting, etc. Are those CSP's purely keepsakes, or do people actually wear them? What are the guidelines here?

    Thanks!

  • #2
    Webelos are not in patrols, they are in Dens. The insignia sheet doesn't show patrol patches for Webelos for that reason. If you'll note, they show den patches.

    Comment


    • #3
      Exactly so. The Web Colors are attached as shown in the picture, pins attached to the dangles. JTE is placed as shown under the Den patch. The Cub at the bottom does not have a den patch, probably because, since the colors are only worn by Webs, the Pack may say THAT is the Den Patch.
      AND the bottom most sleeve is mislabeled, it is still the RIGHT sleeve.

      Council patches are wearable and collectable, and make money for the Council. Pick one that matches your eyes and wear that.


      Remember the Cub Mantra: KiSMiF, KiSMiF....and thank you for your service to our boys....

      Comment


      • #4
        As to the CSP's...if you want to wear them. Wear them. I have the 2010 100th Anniversary CSP on my Cubsmaster Uniform. On my District Uniform I have a FOS CSP. For the Troop one that I am getting, it will have the normal CSP.

        Comment


        • #5

          Originally posted by perdidochas View Post
          Webelos are not in patrols, they are in Dens. The insignia sheet doesn't show patrol patches for Webelos for that reason. If you'll note, they show den patches.
          They may not be "patrols" in the usual sense, but I believe the term patrols was used in the Fast Start Webelos den leader training. I guess the specialized round patches are still called den patches, though, and not patrol patches. Here's a link with a picture of how the patches should be placed: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pd...6_Section2.pdf If you're going to use the Webelos colors, according to page 32 of the Webelos handbook: "The colors are pinned to the right shirt sleeve just below the U.S. flag. The colors will cover the den emblem and Quality Unit insignia."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by perdidochas View Post
            Webelos are not in patrols, they are in Dens. The insignia sheet doesn't show patrol patches for Webelos for that reason. If you'll note, they show den patches.
            Okay, interesting. In our pack, the Webelos are called something like "Den 3, Cobra Patrol," for instance. Cobra being the round "mascot" patch that I thought was called a patrol patch.

            It is confusing because the scout stores call them patrol patches, and they seem to be the same for Webelos and Boy Scouts.

            Thanks for all the responses.

            Comment


            • #7
              Sounds like you rightly called it a patrol patch. They are optional for Webelos dens (in spite of some of us old farts who totter around muttering "dens have numbers, patrols have names!"), and it sounds like your pack chose to exercise that option.

              Have fun with it!

              Comment


              • #8
                JumpyG,

                Nope, the Inspection sheet is not lacking. The Webelos "Den Emblem," which is a patrol medallion, is either not worn, or worn underneath the tricolors as they were called in my day.

                Here is the Guide to Insignia link on the matter, and check out page 19 of the actual book.

                As others have stated, they are the 'Cobra Den" not patrol.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Duct Tape. Put'em on withdoubled over duct tape, that way you can redo the insignia when they cross over to Boy Scouts. Never use the glue/iron on stuff, which is quick and neat INITIALLY, but gets messy and unsightly with age and washing (a Scout is clean).
                  Or big safety pins.

                  Staples work well, but can fall off and are "pointy" the boys say, but what can you do? They're boys.

                  Or you might even try that thin thready stuff I've seen , goes around the outside of the patch? Some folks think it works, even easy to change, they say, I don't know. Some of this new fangled stuff, I think I heard it called "so-ing"? you need a small, thin special tool ( I bet it's expensive!) to do. Something like that....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eagle92 View Post
                    JumpyG,

                    Nope, the Inspection sheet is not lacking. The Webelos "Den Emblem," which is a patrol medallion, is either not worn, or worn underneath the tricolors as they were called in my day.

                    Here is the Guide to Insignia link on the matter, and check out page 19 of the actual book.

                    As others have stated, they are the 'Cobra Den" not patrol.
                    The insignia guide states:
                    "Webelos colors, red, yellow, and green tabs, No. 452; pack option for wear by Webelos Scouts, right sleeve, under and touching U.S. flag. If den number is worn, under and touching den number. With either option, colors cover Journey to Excellence insignia. If colors are worn, activity badges are worn on the tabs."

                    So this is clear that if a "Den 10" strip is worn, the colors go underneath. The patrol patch is used in place of "Den 10" strip, correct? So it would stand to reason that the colors would go underneath that patrol patch.

                    One more picture or a few more words in the guide would make this crystal clear. Where do I send in a suggestion?
                    Last edited by jumpyg; 05-07-2014, 05:56 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Jumpy,

                      National Supply and Reason?!?!?!?!?! YOU FUNNY!

                      Seriously though, let me give you a little history on the Tricolors, at least from 1984 onwards.

                      When I was a Cub in '84, tricolors were mandatory, instead of a den # patch, you had a den numeral pin that was worn on the colors with the W.A.B.s That was the first year Webelos had the option to wear either the blue CS uniform, or the BS uniform with Cub Scout modifications ( American flag over right pocket being one of them ) Patrol Medallions were NOT (emphasis) authorized at that time.

                      Some time later, I want to say 1989 since a lot of changes occurred that year, national did away with the tricolors,with the W.A.B.s being worn on a Webelos hat that had a "barrier" between the head and the hat fabric the pins went on. national authorized the use of the den numeral patch OR patrol medallion, and did completely away with the den numeral pins. They also made the W.A.B.s colorful instead of all brass, and also expanded them from 15 pins to 20.

                      WWWWEEEEELLLLLLL, some folks complained about the loss of the Webelos Tricolors, how the pins kept popping off the hats, etc, so national brought back the tricolors, But not the numeral pins.

                      Biggest problem I see with placing the Tricolors beneath a patrol medallion is that the colors will be so low, they will hang beneath the elbow.

                      In regards to contacting Supply, sending a private message to their Facebook account may help.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Eagle92 View Post
                        Jumpy,
                        Biggest problem I see with placing the Tricolors beneath a patrol medallion is that the colors will be so low, they will hang beneath the elbow.
                        Thanks for the history, Eagle! That is interesting.

                        I agree with your point here. My problem with putting the colors over the patrol medallion is that the boys picked a fairly unique mascot (Griffin) and I bet they don't want to cover it up! But yeah, then they will hang down a LITTLE lower. Should be less than an inch difference, though.

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Originally posted by jumpyg View Post


                          So this is clear that if a "Den 10" strip is worn, the colors go underneath. The patrol patch is used in place of "Den 10" strip, correct? So it would stand to reason that the colors would go underneath that patrol patch.
                          Again, back to page 32 of the Webelos handbook: "The colors are pinned to the right shirt sleeve just below the U.S. flag. The colors will cover the den emblem and Quality Unit insignia." Den emblem = patrol patch, so your patrol patch will be covered.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jumpyg View Post
                            ... I bet they don't want to cover it up! ...
                            One "red flag" of excessive adult involvement is creating drama instead of attending to health and safety!
                            It's highly unlikely that every boy in the den is bothered about this.
                            Has any boy outright told you they mind the patch being occluded by the colors?
                            If they haven't read p. 32 yet (thanks for the reference, dedkad), how would they know to ask?

                            But just in case the design was made by a boy, who worked very hard to produce and order the patch himself (maybe paid from his individual scout account ) ...

                            After they've read the reference in their Webelos book, ask them what they think. If there's a consensus of dissent, you could decide to let them buck the system, saying it's a senseless regulation. Some of them might appreciate your advise and apply it to the day some other authority (i.e. parent) hands down a senseless regulation. Or, you could tell them that when they're venturers, their crew can design their own uniform, but packs and troops try to follow the national standards. Then ask them to debate what they think is best for their den to do. If they decide it's important that they bend the rules a little to respect little Johnny's hard work in getting his griffin embroidered, make sure you ask them if there are times when they should not "bend the rules."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Is there a proper color for activity pins to go on each color ribbon of the tri-colors? I see no reference.

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