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Can't be registered as both cubmaster and den leader?

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  • Can't be registered as both cubmaster and den leader?

    So, I've been the den leader for my son's Tiger den since the beginning of the school year. I've been diligently tracking and planning super fun activities for the boys every two weeks, as well as doing everything necessary to earn the den leader training award knot.

    Halfway through the year, our cubmaster stepped down and, because I said I would "help", and no other parent responded to the plea for volunteers, I was named cubmaster by default. It was awkward since I am brand new to the program, but I've tried to embrace the position, while still keeping up with my den responsibilities.

    Was discussing something with the committee chair recently and it came up that I am not registered as our den's leader. I'm listed as assistant den leader because, evidently you can't be registered as a cubmaster AND den leader? Is this true? She stated something about Journey to Excellence doesn't let them dual-register leaders. The person they've registered as our den leader originally volunteered to be den leader, but then dropped the ball for the first two meetings (he did no training, no parent communication, no meeting planning---he had no clue what the Cub Scout program was about or what we should be working on), so I took over as den leader. He's done nothing for the den since I stepped up, despite my repeated attempts to involve him in planning and training.

    It stings that he could get recognized for all of my hard work, and that I will receive nothing. It has taken an incredible amount of work and time commitment to juggle the responsibilities of both positions, and get up to speed on the Cub Scouts program in general. Of course, I've been doing everything for the boys' sake, and all the extra work has contributed to our very successful and fun year, but I have to admit I was looking forward to earning my first piece of "bling" for my uniform and I'm a little disappointed I now don't qualify to earn it because of a paperwork issue. Looks like there's no assistant den leader awards, and the cubmaster awards start at 3 years of tenure.

    A scout is trustworthy...so I'm not going to just buy the knot because I'm not the registered den leader and didn't officially earn it, according to the paperwork (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/tr...511-052_WB.pdf).

    But, before I give up on this and move on, is it really true you can't be the registered cubmaster and a den leader at the same time?

  • #2
    A master of cubs' bling is the smile on the boys of a half dozen dens. Get the knot, don't get the knot. Nobody cares. Have a frank discussion with the DL, if he can't step it up, ask him if he'd like some other parent to give it a try. But, also ask yourself if you were doing more work than you needed to ... Some folks lead differently than others. Thanks for your services, and you'll be busy enough as a Cubmaster. That may mean stepping in for den-leaders from time to time. But fighting "multiple hat syndrome" is the best policy.

    Comment


    • #3
      Internet Advancement won't let you register for both positions. Your Council Registrar can do it manually. Fill out an extra Application with the other position, bring it to Round Table, and tell the DE what you need (stick a cover letter on it that they need to ADD the registration).

      Get yourself the Den Leader Knot f you want.

      It is VERY hard to step back and let other people lead when you think you'd do a better job. It is very frustrating to see poorly done Den Leadership, when it is a relatively easy job. (Two Den Meetings/Month isn't that hard. It does require some prep work, but not planning anything and letting the boys down is really lame).

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes, you have to be registered for the position for the Knot your going for at that time. So, if you did Den Leader for one year and then registered as Cub Master for two, you cannot claim Den Leader. If you were the Tiger Den Leader for that one year, then you can for that year. However, you have one more year as Cub Master to earn that Knot.

        You cannot be registered in two positions at once, unless your the Charter Org Rep. Then you can be that and a Committee Member. And no, just by handing on paperwork to the DE and have the Council Registar manually doing it, won't do it either. It still all goes into Scoutnet.

        You can be registered for multiple positions if your in other Scout Units or at the District/Council level. Such as: District Committee Member, Roundtable Commissioner, Unit Commissioner and Troop Comittee Member. Which, I am.

        As to registering as Ast Den Leader. Everyone is a Den Leader. There should not be an Ast DL. You are not there as the DL's assistant. Your there as a DL.

        Also, as it was also said. Two Den Meetings, a Go-See-It and a Pack Meeting...Pretty easy if you make it fun. You could even have a Den Meeting that is rolled into a Go-See-It (which it really is) and Den Meeting and Pack Meeting.

        Now, if the Den LeadKnot thing does not work out for you...there is always the Scouter Training Award. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/tr...511-057_WB.pdf

        Again, you can only use the years for one award. No double dipping.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Shutterbug View Post
          So, I've been the den leader for my son's Tiger den since the beginning of the school year. I've been diligently tracking and planning super fun activities for the boys every two weeks, as well as doing everything necessary to earn the den leader training award knot.
          Halfway through the year, our cubmaster stepped down and, because I said I would "help", and no other parent responded to the plea for volunteers, I was named cubmaster by default. It was awkward since I am brand new to the program, but I've tried to embrace the position, while still keeping up with my den responsibilities.
          Was discussing something with the committee chair recently and it came up that I am not registered as our den's leader. I'm listed as assistant den leader because, evidently you can't be registered as a cubmaster AND den leader? Is this true? She stated something about Journey to Excellence doesn't let them dual-register leaders. The person they've registered as our den leader originally volunteered to be den leader, but then dropped the ball for the first two meetings (he did no training, no parent communication, no meeting planning---he had no clue what the Cub Scout program was about or what we should be working on), so I took over as den leader. He's done nothing for the den since I stepped up, despite my repeated attempts to involve him in planning and training.
          It stings that he could get recognized for all of my hard work, and that I will receive nothing. It has taken an incredible amount of work and time commitment to juggle the responsibilities of both positions, and get up to speed on the Cub Scouts program in general. Of course, I've been doing everything for the boys' sake, and all the extra work has contributed to our very successful and fun year, but I have to admit I was looking forward to earning my first piece of "bling" for my uniform and I'm a little disappointed I now don't qualify to earn it because of a paperwork issue. Looks like there's no assistant den leader awards, and the cubmaster awards start at 3 years of tenure.
          A scout is trustworthy...so I'm not going to just buy the knot because I'm not the registered den leader and didn't officially earn it, according to the paperwork (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/tr...511-052_WB.pdf).
          But, before I give up on this and move on, is it really true you can't be the registered cubmaster and a den leader at the same time?
          Are you in it for you or the boys? I've been a Tiger Cub leader, a Bear leader, a Webelos leader, a Troop Committee member and am now an ASM. I have exactly 0 knots. I'm trained for all of the above except Bear. Don't worry about it. The thing to worry about is are the Cub Scouts having a good time? Are they learning? Are they excited about being Scouts?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Shutterbug View Post
            So, I've been the den leader for my son's Tiger den since the beginning of the school year. I've been diligently tracking and planning super fun activities for the boys every two weeks, as well as doing everything necessary to earn the den leader training award knot.
            Halfway through the year, our cubmaster stepped down and, because I said I would "help", and no other parent responded to the plea for volunteers, I was named cubmaster by default. It was awkward since I am brand new to the program, but I've tried to embrace the position, while still keeping up with my den responsibilities.
            Was discussing something with the committee chair recently and it came up that I am not registered as our den's leader. I'm listed as assistant den leader because, evidently you can't be registered as a cubmaster AND den leader? Is this true? She stated something about Journey to Excellence doesn't let them dual-register leaders. The person they've registered as our den leader originally volunteered to be den leader, but then dropped the ball for the first two meetings (he did no training, no parent communication, no meeting planning---he had no clue what the Cub Scout program was about or what we should be working on), so I took over as den leader. He's done nothing for the den since I stepped up, despite my repeated attempts to involve him in planning and training.
            It stings that he could get recognized for all of my hard work, and that I will receive nothing. It has taken an incredible amount of work and time commitment to juggle the responsibilities of both positions, and get up to speed on the Cub Scouts program in general. Of course, I've been doing everything for the boys' sake, and all the extra work has contributed to our very successful and fun year, but I have to admit I was looking forward to earning my first piece of "bling" for my uniform and I'm a little disappointed I now don't qualify to earn it because of a paperwork issue. Looks like there's no assistant den leader awards, and the cubmaster awards start at 3 years of tenure.
            A scout is trustworthy...so I'm not going to just buy the knot because I'm not the registered den leader and didn't officially earn it, according to the paperwork (http://www.scouting.org/filestore/tr...511-052_WB.pdf).
            But, before I give up on this and move on, is it really true you can't be the registered cubmaster and a den leader at the same time?
            Are you in it for you or the boys? I've been a Tiger Cub leader, a Bear leader, a Webelos leader, a Troop Committee member and am now an ASM. I have exactly 0 knots. I'm trained for all of the above except Bear. Don't worry about it. The thing to worry about is are the Cub Scouts having a good time? Are they learning? Are they excited about being Scouts?

            Comment


            • #7
              If you were doing all of the work in your Tiger den - by yourself - then, while your Tigers might have been having a fun time, you were NOT running a BSA Tiger program.

              A BSA Tiger program is run using "Shared Leadership". That means that everyone in the den gets a chance to "run things", put together a den meeting, put together a den outing, and in general learn about Cub Scouting, and leadership, in a "hands on" manner.

              Why are you so concerned with someone else "getting credit" for what you did? This is Cub Scouts, not a competition. Your Council could care less who actually did the work in your Pack's Tiger den. Your Committee Chair, Committee, other leaders, and the den parents all know. Why is that not enough? It is not like the registered Tiger Den Leader can use what you did in the den to "steal" the training award from you.

              As for being registered in 2 positions at once - here is what is on the BSA Adult Application -

              No one may register in more than one position in the same unit, except the chartered organization representative (CR) (who can multiple only as the committee chairman (CC) or a committee member (MC)), and the parent coordinator (PC), who may multiple as chartered organization representative.
              What are you currently registered as? Has your registration been changed to Cubmaster yet?

              If you are hot about receiving your "bling", and are still registered as an assistant den leader (yes-this is a valid position-DA-although it is not generally used in Tiger dens because of Adult Partners & Shared Leadership), talk to your council to see if they allow assistants to earn the Den Leader Training Award. Some might, especially if it was a matter of not registering you in the correct position originally.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hey, some people like the bling. It's all good.

                Personally, I chuckle a little to myself when I see a Scouter with more than maybe 3 or 4 knots, but that's just me.

                I do admit to being perhaps a bit more humble, with zero knots on my shirt so far and not really all that motivated to pursue it.... BUT....
                Actually I do buy into the idea of leading by example and it does seem like a good idea to be working towards something just like the boys are. Same idea really. I actually think there should be more things available for adults to work on.... simpler and maybe a little more achievable stuff too, just for doing the job......not so that we can get more bling, but so that we can show the boys that we too are working towards something.... wanting to earn something.... wanting to improve ourselves.

                I've looked through this stuff in the past, and in fact recently..... nothing really available for ADL's and the like..... not much for the other committee members either. Some of them require JTE, Summertime awards, etc..... so if a leader happens to be in a unit that doesn't pursue those things, those are out.....

                So we're back to the OP..... he's led a successful den year, he's done more than just show up. IMHO, he should have some simple award that the pack can give him, just for that alone! just like the boys.... and FOR the boys sake. Not a made up award, but an official something.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thank you for all the replies, guys! Sounds like it's a "no" then---they switched me over to cubmaster before the ink had dried on the pack committee minutes in November! That's fine. Just thought I'd double-check to be sure, and I wasn't sure where to turn. It's not THAT important to me, I was just a bit disappointed that it wasn't possible now due to a technicality. I appreciate all the guidance!

                  As for whether or not I'm in it for the "bling" or the boys, I'm actually a little offended you would even question that, perdidochas. It appears as though the BSA program---especially Cub Scouts---has a big basis in recognition awards. And that's true for leaders too, as evidenced by the number of patches and pins on all the leader uniforms at our monthly roundtable. Everyone likes to be---and deserves to be---recognized for their efforts. I had a simple question and wasn't really looking for judgment over my motives. As I stated in my original post, most of the extra work I did in order to earn the awards (lots of parent communication, attending roundtable, planning extra outdoor activities, etc.) has really helped our program be more successful and fun this year, and I don't regret any of the work I've put in. Clearly, BSA designed the award to encourage leaders to do the right things to make their Cub Scout program work as it was intended.

                  And yes, ScoutNut is right to point out that I'm not running the Tiger program as intended. Our previous cubmaster explained the program to us incorrectly at the initial meeting, so the other parents immediately said they didn't want anything to do with leading, leaving me + the other guy in charge. By the time I figured out how the Tiger den was supposed to be run, we were already two months into the program and everyone was content to sit back while I ran things. My busy season for work is in the fall and I was dealing with a family crisis situation, so I didn't have time to delegate to the other parents and follow up with them to make sure things were organized. By the time things calmed down in my world, our Tigers had earned their badges and, by then, it was too late to change the formula they (and their parents) had become accustomed to. So here we are.

                  The boys have had a great time while working towards their achievements, and that's all that matters.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    If you continue as den leader, you will have plenty of years to earn that den leader knot. If you are that concerned about it, you could recruit someone to be Cubmaster and assure them that you will do all the behind the scenes work and they just need to show up to the meetings with your agenda in hand. But if you did that, then you wouldn't be able to earn the Cubmaster knot, so I guess choices will need to be made.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Shutterbug View Post
                      Our previous cubmaster explained the program to us incorrectly at the initial meeting, so the other parents immediately said they didn't want anything to do with leading, leaving me + the other guy in charge. By the time I figured out how the Tiger den was supposed to be run, we were already two months into the program and everyone was content to sit back while I ran things. My busy season for work is in the fall and I was dealing with a family crisis situation, so I didn't have time to delegate to the other parents and follow up with them to make sure things were organized. By the time things calmed down in my world, our Tigers had earned their badges and, by then, it was too late to change the formula they (and their parents) had become accustomed to. So here we are.

                      The boys have had a great time while working towards their achievements, and that's all that matters.
                      Good point there! I too was knee deep into being the Tiger Den Leader when I realized there was a pattern and a method to it all. The Tigers survived and I worked the program. Yes, I did end up as the Cub Master. It is a shame when people do not convey the info correctly. I would urge you to go to in-person training than the online. You will get more out of it. Plus make connections to others that you can reachout for support for.

                      Oh, and as for the Knots. Go for it. I read the requirements for the Tiger DL Knot, Cub Master and others and made me realize that there were things/requirements for me to go do. It ended up for the 5 years I was in the Pack that we got the Summertime Pack Award, Boys got the CS Outdoor Award and Quality Unit two times and Journey to Excellence Gold with Boyslife two times. So, the Tiger Den Leader, Cub Master knot and Cubscouter Knot actually got a lot more fun and programming at the Den/Pack level.

                      Which, if you put in my Wood Badge beads (A ticket item), we got the 2010 Anniversary Ribbons done and our local Council's 100th Anniversary CSP completed. Which included Leave No Trace Award and so much more.

                      So, Knots are cool!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You should always be trying to Earn the knots, JTE patches etc. The anti adult recognition people are wrong. The recognition is nice, but each award comes with a checklist of things that makes you run a better program for the scouts. My leaders all got their training completed because I hounded them while we pursued JTE. We hit JTE Gold, and everyone being trained made a huge difference in our program delicery.

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