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preventing scouts from crossing over

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  • #16
    ScoutNut,

    Thanks for the input. First, I do believe the Tiger den leader "Did His Best". he scheduled a tour of a real working newspaper printer. However, he was unable to get a date before B&G. I do not think taking the scouts to "Kinkos" would at all be "Doing your Best". That sound more like meeting the letter of the requirement and not truly giving the scouts something they will remember.

    I fully support this leader in his effort to create meaningful Go-See-Its for his den and a great program. Instead of watching baseball on TV he arranged for them to go to a real baseball game and run the bases after the game was over. Which one do you think is "Doing your Best"? should his den be punished because they didn't take the easy way out?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by FSUscout View Post
      We are having our annual crossover (B&G) next weekend and the Webelos II Den Leader who is running it wants to prevent the Tigers (whole den) from crossing over (receiving their Tiger Badge). Our Tiger den leader has completed everything except for the "How I tell it" Go See It. He has scheduled a tour of a newspaper office but they could not schedule the tour until after the blue and gold. Because of this the Webelos II Den leader is stating that the while tiger den can not advance. I have read the Den Leader book and the tiger handbook and can't find anything to support this view. Can anyone provide any insight as to what should be done.
      You have things confused in terms of terminology and concepts. First of all, crossover is just the crossover of Webelos to Boy Scouts. There is no crossover of tiger cubs. There is an end of the school year bridging or tansition from Tigers to WOlves, but that has nothing to do with advancement. It occurs at the end of the school year, not right now. Third, you are really talking about the awarding of the Tiger Badge, and your Webelos leader is exactly right. They cannot legitimately be awarded the Tiger Badge until all requirements are completed.

      To all this, it really doesn't matter. The Blue and Gold is not the end of the cub scouting year. It should just be a celebration of Cub Scouting. Just give the Tigers their advancement after they have earned it at your April pack meeting.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by FSUscout View Post
        AK,
        Like I said, I completely agree with the scouts earning their rank badge as soon as they earn it. However, in this pack they make everyone wait till B&G to receive their patch. So we have a situation where the "whole" pack minus the tigers are going to receive their rank. We also do not do anything special in the pack meetings rank badges. Again I wish we did ranks in pack meetings as soon as they earn them.
        I also have the Webelos II leader saying the reason she doesn't want the tigers to earn their rank is "BSA policy" (but she can't point me to a specific reference). Once I found the above it seem obvious that BSA policy is to let them earn their rank badges with the rest of the pack.
        I will look into the scarf ceremony you mentioned. Its sound really cool and I love cool ceremonies.
        Your WEb II leader is right. BSA policy is that you don't award rank badges until you earn them--it's basic honesty. Also, BSA poliicy is that you remain a Tiger until June 1. The problem is that your pack is doing things wrong. If I were you I would just simply demand that at the next pack meeting you have time to give the Tigers their awards. Have your parents ask the CM the same thing. Or if not, plan your own Tiger cub advancement ceremony at a Den Meeting. Ask if your local Boy Scout Troop can help with the ceremony--I'm sure that the boy scouts might need to be an MC at a ceremony for Communications Merit Badge.

        Comment


        • #19
          I know I have the terminology messed up in the first post and that is my fault (I do know the difference) it just as a pack we use the terms interchangeably (which I'm trying to change). See one of my other posts concerning the way this pack handles awarding patches during B&G (which I am also trying to change) I know if were we doing things the right way this would not be as big of an issue.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by AKdenldr View Post
            Eagle92,
            Can you quote the part in GTSS that says that ceremonies involving flaming scarves are not allowed? I could not find it.

            I was told about the flaming scarves at a Scout leader training this weekend. I would also like to see the G2SS about this.

            Comment


            • #21
              http://www.scouting.org/Home/Healtha...ckerchief.aspx

              this might be what you are looking for.

              Comment


              • #22
                FSUscout, thanks, but that link doesn't seem relevant to me. Although fire is involved this is not a youth and fire starting situation, this is adult using a flammable chemical for a ceremony.

                Comment


                • #23
                  I don't think the example of adults using flammable liquids is a good message to send to the boys. Lead by example. And the comment reads any fire, not just fire started by the youth. I think the message getting out means in certain circumstances adults as mentors and teachers can say one thing and do another. I believe that's the definition of hypocrisy. There are ways far safer to have a ceremony for the boys that don't open the door to burning something down or starting the woods on fire. If these are Cub leaders doing this for AOL, I don't think I want to be around to testify in court when something goes horribly wrong. Maybe YOU are safe when you do it, but that doesn't mean the next guy trying it out is safe. I've been in scouting for 30+ years and have never found the need to burn up a necker to put some wow factor into any ceremony. I find it far more rewarding as a SM to simply put the new guy's necker on him for the first time, looking him in the eyes and welcoming him into the troop. But then again, I might be too old fashioned to do else wise.

                  This kind of thing always reminds me of the lady that was burning her garbage in the back yard years ago, poured gas on it and then realized she didn't have matches. It was a hot day and by the time she got back most of the gas had vaporized. When she finally did get the match lit, it would have been a far better outcome if all she lost were her eyebrows. Then there are the campers I have witnessed that didn't think the embers in the bottom of the charcoal were growing fast enough so they poured some white gas on things to speed it up. Yep, worked big time!

                  Stosh

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    "Although fire is involved this is not a youth and fire starting situation, this is adult using a flammable chemical for a ceremony"

                    "The use of liquid fuels for starting any type of fire is prohibited.”

                    Not sure where the confusion lies; "any type of fire" doesn't leave much wiggle room. Is it a fire? Then don't use liquid fuel. Pretty clear to me.
                    But everyone has an opinion. . .

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by jblake47 View Post
                      I don't think the example of adults using flammable liquids is a good message to send to the boys. Lead by example. And the comment reads any fire, not just fire started by the youth. I think the message getting out means in certain circumstances adults as mentors and teachers can say one thing and do another. I believe that's the definition of hypocrisy. There are ways far safer to have a ceremony for the boys that don't open the door to burning something down or starting the woods on fire. If these are Cub leaders doing this for AOL, I don't think I want to be around to testify in court when something goes horribly wrong. Maybe YOU are safe when you do it, but that doesn't mean the next guy trying it out is safe. I've been in scouting for 30+ years and have never found the need to burn up a necker to put some wow factor into any ceremony. I find it far more rewarding as a SM to simply put the new guy's necker on him for the first time, looking him in the eyes and welcoming him into the troop. But then again, I might be too old fashioned to do else wise.

                      Stosh
                      Your aren't old fashion Jblake, just a little boring. I performed this ceremony a dozen times and I'm still here to tell about it. It is a really cool ceremony LOL, but National now forbids it. As for adults setting the example, there is a right way to do anything, and a wrong way. The good example is doing it the right way. The Scouts in our troop take pride in going the extra mile for doing really cool ceremonies. Their creativity is pretty impressive and they have received standing ovations at summer camp. Our troop does a good job on safety training, but I admit I have seen some minor incidents in other troops. In each case, training followed.

                      Barry

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by FSUscout View Post
                        Thanks for the input. First, I do believe the Tiger den leader "Did His Best". he scheduled a tour of a real working newspaper printer. However, he was unable to get a date before B&G. I do not think taking the scouts to "Kinkos" would at all be "Doing your Best". That sound more like meeting the letter of the requirement and not truly giving the scouts something they will remember.

                        I fully support this leader in his effort to create meaningful Go-See-Its for his den and a great program. Instead of watching baseball on TV he arranged for them to go to a real baseball game and run the bases after the game was over. Which one do you think is "Doing your Best"? should his den be punished because they didn't take the easy way out?
                        A visit to "Kinkos" is a perfectly valid way for the boys to participate, and do their best. The Achievement is NOT about simply visiting a TV, or newspaper. It is about discovering ways of communicating with other people. In fact, a copy center is even recommended by BSA as a way to complete the requirement.

                        From the BSA Tiger Handbook -

                        Note to Adult Partner: If your community doesn't have opportunities for you to take the den to visit a television station, radio station, or newspaper office, you may take them to a print shop, copy center, or business that reproduces its own newsletter. Your school or place of worship may have equipment for reproducing fliers and newsletters. The goal is to show boys how media can be used to communicate with a lot of people. One benefit of visiting a television station, radio station, or newspaper office is that boys may be reminded of the visit when watching television, listening to the radio, or reading a newspaper.
                        This is not an "easy way out". It is one way (out of a number of different ways) that the requirement can be completed. Any of the various different ways can be great fun for the boys. It simply takes some imagination, and a bit of pre-planning.

                        And, BTW, if the only way for a Tiger to complete Achievement 3-G was to was to watch a game on TV with his family, then - YES - that would be "doing his best".

                        Remember this is about the SCOUT, not the leader, doing his best.

                        This is also not about "punishing" anyone. It is about making sure the boys that get the award have completed the requirements for it. Celebrating their achievement at your B&G, but giving out the actual badge at the final go-see-it, is a good way of doing that.

                        It is a simple matter of handing out a certificate, instead of the badge, at the B&G. The certificate can state something along the lines of "To be redeemed at your Go-See-It for your freshly published Tiger badge."

                        If your "crossover" at your B&G includes graduating all Scouts to their next level (which I strongly disagree with) there is no reason not to include the Tiger den in that ceremony as (has been stated above) moving up levels has nothing to do with earning any award.

                        Again - what is your position in the Pack?

                        Are you the Tiger den leader?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by FSUscout View Post
                          http://www.scouting.org/Home/Healtha...ckerchief.aspx

                          this might be what you are looking for.
                          Originally posted by AKdenldr View Post
                          FSUscout, thanks, but that link doesn't seem relevant to me. Although fire is involved this is not a youth and fire starting situation, this is adult using a flammable chemical for a ceremony.
                          I do not understand why you state that it is not relevant. This is from the BSA National web site SPECIFICALLY addressing Flaming Neckerchief ceremonies.

                          Seems very relevant, and clear cut, to me.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I am doing this with my Ham Radios. Setting them all up and will be getting them on the air. Explaining how people communicate. I have done this in the past when a Tiger misses the outing. Very easy.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Eagledad View Post

                              Your aren't old fashion Jblake, just a little boring. I performed this ceremony a dozen times and I'm still here to tell about it. It is a really cool ceremony LOL, but National now forbids it. As for adults setting the example, there is a right way to do anything, and a wrong way. The good example is doing it the right way. The Scouts in our troop take pride in going the extra mile for doing really cool ceremonies. Their creativity is pretty impressive and they have received standing ovations at summer camp. Our troop does a good job on safety training, but I admit I have seen some minor incidents in other troops. In each case, training followed.

                              Barry
                              When it comes to burning things down, I like boring.

                              Stosh

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                FSU,

                                Thanks for posting the link.

                                AK,

                                Yep, no liquid fuels for lighting fires for adults or youth. Heck I had one leader try and tell me liquid fuel stoves were now verboten. Luckily BSA allows you to still use liquid fuels if you use a manufactured device approved for the fuel to use, no more homemade tuna can stoves

                                But my MSR Whisperlight International stove, designed to burn keroseen, gasoline, JP fuel, ad nasueum Is still OK .

                                Comment

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