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  • preventing scouts from crossing over

    We are having our annual crossover (B&G) next weekend and the Webelos II Den Leader who is running it wants to prevent the Tigers (whole den) from crossing over (receiving their Tiger Badge). Our Tiger den leader has completed everything except for the "How I tell it" Go See It. He has scheduled a tour of a newspaper office but they could not schedule the tour until after the blue and gold. Because of this the Webelos II Den leader is stating that the while tiger den can not advance. I have read the Den Leader book and the tiger handbook and can't find anything to support this view. Can anyone provide any insight as to what should be done.
    Last edited by FSUscout; 03-22-2014, 09:14 AM.

  • #2
    ugh, they advance regardless of what they did or did not do. They will be Wolves even if they did nothing at all. Not earning the Tiger Badge is a different story. Ask the opposing leader "what is best for the boys", which should ALWAYS be the deciding question. Did they Do Their Best to get everything done? Then don't be a ____ about it!

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm old school, so here's my $.02.

      1. Tigers do not cross over, only those Webelos moving up to Boy Scouts Cross over.

      2. I hate to say it, but the Tigers didn't complete the badge yet, so they shouldn't be getting it. They still have plenty of time.

      2a. Tigers, Wolves, and Bears do not move up to the next level until June 1st.

      2b. AND Tigers, Wolves, and Bears have the option to either 1) finish up any requirements and electives over the summer Until September 1st if memory serves, OR 2)Begin working on their new rank effective June 1st.

      3) No one should begin working on the next rank at this point.

      The Guide to Advancement, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf has this to say.

      page 20 Tiger Cub rank is for boys who have completed kindergarten or are 7 years old
      Once a boy has earned his Tiger Cub badge, he can earn “Tiger Track” beads. These spark interest in new hobbies, activities, or skills. The fl at, yellow beads are added to the Immediate Recognition emblem. One is awarded for every 10 electives finished. The elective activities appear in the youth handbook. There is no limit to the number of Tiger Track beads a boy can earn, and he can repeat electives at the discretion of the den leader and adult partner. A boy can work on them at the same time as achievements, but he does not receive beads until he has earned the Tiger Cub badge.



      The Wolf rank is for boys who have completed first grade or are 8 years old


      The Bear rank is for boys who have completed second grade or are 9 years old.
      4.1.1.6 Arrow Points

      A newly recognized Wolf or Bear Cub Scout then turns his attention to Arrow Points. Arrow Points develop interests and teach skills, many of which are useful in Boy Scouting. One is awarded for every 10 electives: a Gold Arrow for the first 10, and Silver for every 10 thereafter. There is no limit to the number of Silver Arrows that can be awarded, but they must be completed before a boy moves to the next rank’s program.



      Comment


      • #4
        Maybe your B&G shouldn't be so much about earning rank badges. Use it as an opportunity to celebrate Scouting and the achievements they have done so far instead. Or just make it a super special party. They have plenty of time to earn their badges. I don't think you should award badges to boys who haven't completed all of the requirements and no one should feel like they failed because of it. If you think the format of your B&G will make the Tigers feel like failures, then modify your B&G format instead of modifying the rules that boys actually need to complete the requirements before they earn something.

        Comment


        • #5
          thanks for the link the advancement guide. this is also in the guide concerning cub scouts.

          ~~4.1.0.4 “Do Your Best”
          Cub Scouts—even those of the same age—may have
          very different developmental timetables. For this reason,
          advancement performance in Cub Scouting is centered
          on its motto: “Do Your Best.” When a boy has done
          this—his very best—then regardless of the requirements
          for any rank or award, it is enough; accomplishment is
          noted. This is why den leaders, assistants, and parents
          or guardians are involved in approvals. Generally they
          know if effort put forth is really the Cub Scout’s best.


          As far as B&G being used to award all ranks their patches, I completely agree they should be separate. However, this is how our pack has always done it and I'm not likely to change that tradition quickly.


          Comment


          • #6
            FSUscout, I think the Webelos leader is right. Boys should be awarded their rank when they have earned it. Some first graders would really know that they had not done all of the "go see it's" yet. Make a big deal of the tigers at the March pack meeting. Better yet, make a big deal of them at both meetings. "Celebrate their accomplishments"

            I've found that the traditions in Packs ARE easily changed. The boys are in the program only a short time, their memories are short, and parents are also. Being "true blue" and delivering the program as the BSA intended is a terrific reason to change tradition.

            In our pack we saved the bridge for bridging to boy scouts which usually happens in Feb. We would award rank awards when earned, some dens were done in Feb, some in May, some dens were mostly done in Feb with a few scouts catching up by May. In a May picnic or campout we would promote the boys with a meaningful scarf ceremony so they went to camp in June with the new scarves. Any awards could have been tidy-ed up at that point.

            If you want a wizbang scarf ceremony to make an impression, google "flaming scarf". It will be the new tradition and 3 years from now it will be "the way we have always done it".

            -- AK

            Comment


            • #7
              AK,

              Like I said, I completely agree with the scouts earning their rank badge as soon as they earn it. However, in this pack they make everyone wait till B&G to receive their patch. So we have a situation where the "whole" pack minus the tigers are going to receive their rank. We also do not do anything special in the pack meetings rank badges. Again I wish we did ranks in pack meetings as soon as they earn them.

              I also have the Webelos II leader saying the reason she doesn't want the tigers to earn their rank is "BSA policy" (but she can't point me to a specific reference). Once I found the above it seem obvious that BSA policy is to let them earn their rank badges with the rest of the pack.

              I will look into the scarf ceremony you mentioned. Its sound really cool and I love cool ceremonies.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hate to say it, but your pack is doing advancement incorrectly. This isn't old school Boy Scouts where they don't receive the advancement except 4 times a year at the Court of Honor. This is Cub Scouts where they get their rank at the next pack meeting. Heck Most Boy Scout troops I know no longer make the scouts wait for a COH to get their rank, it's as soon as the troop gets teh rank badge, preferably at the next troop meeting.

                As for the flaming neckerchief, it's no longer allowed in G2SS, as well as the Flaming AOL. Saw those once and the pyro in my was thinking "AWESOME!" But alas, national says no more.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Our pack meets at the last weekend of the month. The Webelos crossover at the end of march. All other dens rank up at the last pack meeting. Due to our pack meeting in a school out last pack meeting is usually in may. As for the getting all rank requirements done, some go see my not be possible. As long at the parents/leaders do their best and try to get the events scheduled that is what counts. This is cub scouts, let's not loose sight of the goal. Tigers are 6 yr olds and for the parents this is their first taste in scouts. My advise is don't leave them with a biter taste. The Cubmaster and CC should have been helping them along. Waiting to the last second and then telling them "sorry but not close enough" is not being friendly. Also this situation is not up to the other den leaders. It's up to the CM, CC, and Tiger DL.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The idea of "advancing" at the February B&G stems from the wrongly held idea that the bigger the event the better. The B&G should be a fun , celebration about Scouting. Show pics/movies about the years adventures. Have each Den make a skit and LAUGH at it, whether you can hear the Tigers say their lines or not. Eat home made spaghetti, and cake. Let your Commisssioner (if you have one) come and give a pep talk about Scouting and compliment the boys on their uniforms. Let an "old timer" come and reminisce alittle about his time in the Pack (by this I mean a BOY SCOUT working on his Communication Merit Badge).

                    As has been said, the Cubs advance at the end of the year, regardless of their EARNING (!!) their badge. The badge (Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Web1, Web2) is awarded when it is completed, at the next Pack Meeting. Webelos to Boy Scout Crossover should be a Special Event (bring in the OA) and the Pack should NOT "give up" with the B&G . The Pack year runs from September to September. The parents who say" well, we're done.." in April or May are cheating their sons of the wealth of adventure and knowledge available to Cubs thru the rest of the year.
                    Beside the "normal" Den/family trips, and activities, here's what I suggest makes for a successful and well appreciated Cub Scout Pack calendar:
                    February: B&G banquet (see above)

                    March: More awards, more skits, more plans: Cub Scout Day Camp? Webelos Overnight camp?...

                    April: MAYBE Webelos crossover. If you have to, make it a special night, away from the "usual" Pack Meeting. Webs should have their Troops picked out, and maybe even transfer membership. Troops (if they have their act together) will already have the nascent Scouts signed up and reservations made for summer camp.

                    May: More awards, badges awarded. Look to the Council Cub Theme (attended Roundtable?) Go to the park, have a "buddy" Hike with your local Troop, this is the young Cubs, not just the Webs. Wolves are capable of 3 miles of easy walk.

                    June: A last Pack Picnic. Make a show of the boys "Moving Up". Webs may or may not be present. Hotdogs, horse shoes, frisbees, get ready for the Summer Program: a hike or museum visit a month, doesn't matter if folks are "on vacation", schedule it, give'm the opportunity Earn the Summer Activity Award.

                    Pack Tradition, as has been said, changes with the parents and their memories of Packs past (might not even be this one). And remind your parents, their son is only 7 (or 8, or 9, or 10....) once.

                    Again, repeat the Cub Scout Mantra with me: Kismif, Kismif, Kismif....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Eagle92,

                      Can you quote the part in GTSS that says that ceremonies involving flaming scarves are not allowed? I could not find it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by FSUscout View Post
                        thanks for the link the advancement guide. this is also in the guide concerning cub scouts.

                        ~~4.1.0.4 “Do Your Best”
                        Cub Scouts—even those of the same age—may have very different developmental timetables. For this reason, advancement performance in Cub Scouting is centered on its motto: “Do Your Best.” When a boy has done this—his very best—then regardless of the requirements for any rank or award, it is enough; accomplishment is noted. This is why den leaders, assistants, and parents or guardians are involved in approvals. Generally they know if effort put forth is really the Cub Scout’s best.

                        As far as B&G being used to award all ranks their patches, I completely agree they should be separate. However, this is how our pack has always done it and I'm not likely to change that tradition quickly.
                        Irrelevant. The Tigers haven't failed to meet the requirement due to "developmental" differences, they simply haven't done it yet.

                        Good advice from the others. Rather than shutting the Tigers out of the B&G program because they haven't finished yet, use the time to have them do a skit or talk about things tehy've done this year so they still feel part of it.
                        Last edited by Scouter99; 03-23-2014, 09:35 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Originally posted by FSUscout View Post
                          AK,

                          Once I found the above it seem obvious that BSA policy is to let them earn their rank badges with the rest of the pack.
                          I don't agree at all with your interpretation of the "Do Your Best" policy. "Do Your Best" doesn't mean we skip a requirement completely but still give out awards anyway because our den leader didn't get around to scheduling our go-see on time and the pack insists that we do rank badges at B&G. The intent of Do Your Best is to actually give it a try, but to understand that some scouts may lack the physical, mental, geographic, or other ability to complete the requirement exactly as written. I had boys who were physically incapable of doing pull-ups. They tried several times and did their best trying, but just could not do it because they are large for their age. We switched the requirement for those boys to a timed hang instead. They successfully completed the revised requirement. That's "Do Your Best" in my opinion. Say you live in an area that doesn't have a newspaper office, radio station, or TV station. You think of some other requirement that might fit closely with that requirement, such as listening to a news broadcast on TV, going to the library and reviewing old newspapers, do your own pretend den newscast, or publish your own pack newsletter, or something ...anything. You don't just make excuses and skip it completely. You try! You can't Do Your Best if you don't even try.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            dedkad,

                            Just to be clear, this is not a situation where they skipped the requirement completely. And the developmental issues you are referring to are covered in a different section then "Do your best". I don't know where you got the part about skipping requirements from (I never said they skipped them). I also know that our pack does not do it "right" by having everyone earn their badge during Blue and Gold but that's the way it is until I can get more of the council to want to change it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Since you are so concerned with BSA policy -

                              First - earning your badge of rank is a completely separate event from moving to the next Cub level. Cub Scouts do not "crossover" (actually the term is graduate) to their next level until the END of the school year. BSA automatically moves all registered Cubs up on June 1st. No matter what. The Cubs in the Pack have 2 more months to work in their current Cub level, and earn more beads/arrow points/etc.

                              Second - How does the BSA "Do Your Best" policy fit in your scenario? How have the Tiger Scouts done anything, much less their "best", to complete this requirement? This is not about "different developmental timetables" in the Tigers. This is about Tiger Partners who have left everything in the lap of the den leader. This is about a den leader who can't read a calendar, or schedule properly. A tour of a local copy center would have completed the requirement long ago.

                              What happens when you give out the Tiger rank awards this weekend, but when it comes time to actually go on the outing, and finish up the badge requirements, some of the Tiger families decide they do not have to because their son has already "earned" the badge?

                              How is that doing their "best"? What is that teaching the boys?

                              Personally, if I were the Tiger den leader, I would 1) try MY best to get the requirement covered - somehow - before the weekend, 2) failing that, I would let my Tiger Teams know that they would participate in the award ceremony this weekend, but that I would be collecting the badges back again, and they would be re-issued at the outing which completes the requirements. That outing, or something else that completes the requirements would happen IMMEDIATELY, not in a month or two.

                              Also, you keep stating that you can not change Pack policy. Why not?

                              What is your position in the Pack?

                              All it takes is one person to stand up and say - Hey! We are doing this wrong! Here the way that is recommended by BSA, and here is a way that is better/more fun for the BOYS.

                              All it takes is for one den leader to stand up at a Committee/Leader meeting and state that their den has completed all requirements for their rank award, and they are presenting them to their den, with a fun ceremony, at the very next Pack meeting.

                              Just do it. One den, one leader, at a time.

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