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Donations from Troop to Cub and Venture??

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  • Donations from Troop to Cub and Venture??

    Can a BSA Troop donate money to a Cub Pack? Can the Cub Pack accept the funds? Same for a Venture Crew...can they accept donations from the Troop?

  • #2
    When our associated Cub Pack was being re-started after years of inactivity, our troop gave them $250 as seed money to get them started. It was the best investment we ever made! Theya re thriving with 75-80 cubs, and we normally get 10-12 crossovers per year.


    • #3
      If you are all under the same CO I don't see why not.. All funds are really owned by your CO.. So all your doing is shuffling money from one of the CO's bank accounts into another of the CO's bank accounts.


      • wendyscout
        wendyscout commented
        Editing a comment
        The Pack is under a differen CO - the Boys and Girls Club. It was not initiated by the parents; it was 'sold' by our CC. I thought scout organizations couldn't solicit for donations?

    • #4
      The Pack is with a different CO. Does that change the answer?
      The Venture Crew is in our CO.

      The background is that our Committee Chair is trying to start the Cub Pack and the Venture Crew. However, many on the committee are not on board. Some are also concerned that she's been using Troop money and making promises to these groups without going through the Committee first.

      We want to strengthen our own Troop, which is in desperate need of focus and basic infrastructure. We're concerned that her attention and time with the Cub and Venture are distracting her attention and ours - as she uses committee agendas to discuss Cub and Venture needs, often above Troop needs. And now she also wants us to spend Troop money supporting them. When she asked for $ for the Cub pack, there was no indication that there is any parent involvement or real interest, and she reacted very defensively when asked. We definitely would like to see them grow, but believe that they need to be committed themselves, and that we can provide more help if we're strong ourselves.

      Any input?


      • ScoutNut
        ScoutNut commented
        Editing a comment
        I can't help but wonder why your Charter Org did not see fit to start it's own Pack.

        Why is the Troop's CC starting a brand new Pack, with a different CO?

        What position does the Troop CC hold with the Pack? With the Crew?

      • wendyscout
        wendyscout commented
        Editing a comment
        The CO just doesn't have the bandwidth to start a cub pack. The CC went to the Boys and Girls Club across the street and sold the idea to them. Same troop number, different CO. She thinks it will be a feeder pack, but we already have a pack in the community with no troop - which we could simply court. Seems like a lot of work to start a whole new pack, especially when there are no parents initiating it. The Troop CC says she is an advisor, but when she asked for the donation, she was the one who spoke for the group. Only one other person was there from the pack - a past Troop scout, who she recruited on a temporary basis. He's about 20 y.o., and she kept dismissing him (he's only here til Jan - he's temporary as we find someone to lead the pack) when I tried to ask him questions. Even he didn't seem confident that starting this pack is a good idea. But she's an authority figure to him, and he couldn't say no.

        For Venture, she started that too, and we're not sure what her real position is. We don't see any real evidence of anyone else being involved in that either.

        I thought maybe I had found a polite way to avoid funding these groups, at least until we can see if they have substance or not.

    • #5
      You actually have many questions here.

      "Can you?" -- Sure. There is no rule against it. Assuming your charter org is a non-profit, non-profits often donate to each other.

      "Should you?" -- IMHO, that is your real question. You are asking about a hard rule to avoid resolving the internal disagreements and politics. No, there is no hard blocking rule to use to avoid having this harder "should you" discussion? Personally, I have no issue with it. But, if your troop's adult leaders are not on the same page, I'd invest time getting them on the same page. Your committee chair may or may not have a good idea. Having one committee chair over the pack, troop and crew could have big benefits. But the troop committee chair's first responsibility is to the troop. I'd ask her politely to keep the troop leaders meeting to addressing troop issues. Starting a pack and venture may or may not be part of that agenda. But your leaders need to decide that.


      • #6
        As mentioned: I would have several concerns.

        As stated: Can you? old unit used to receive donations from numerous locations.

        Should you? Sure...but I'd want EVERYONE in BOTH COMMITTEE'S invovled! Cub Pack should make a request to the Troop...and full committee should get a vote.

        This situation as you describe it sounds a little unusual to say the least. While I can understand the desire for a Troop to create a seed Pack...(what it sounds like he wants to do) and possibly a Venture program to advance the Troop into...getting everyone on board is very necessary. On top of that...if your own Troop really NEEDS the CC's help to maintain itself.. that's something you should discuss further.


        • #7
          If your CC is transferring money on his own without a Committee vote, and seeing it is a troop the SM should be insisting on a vote from the Boys.. Because basically it is money raised, by the boys for the boys.. A pack may get away with a vote from the adult leaders, but a troop should get approval from the boys.. Anyway if the CC is doing this on their own, it really is theft, maybe not for personal gain, but it would be for their personal interest group..

          If your troop is suspecting, but not sure.. I have to ask, who is the troop treasurer.. You should have at least 3 in the committee, one should be a treasurer.. If your troop has handed all committee duties over to one sole person, you have a serious problem.. Where is the checks and balances?? You have set yourself up to be taken advantage of.. WHY.. Is the CC not allowing others to work in the committee, or our you parents concerned, but not willing to get involved in the troop enough to have the needed checks and balances??.. If your troop needs work who do you want to do the work?.. The CC, the SM, the boys, are you taking on some of the responsibility..??

          I could see your troop offering support by working a joint fundraiser with them, (provided the boys are interested.).. The pack & crew must put in the elbow grease, but you can help them start to figure out how pull a decent fundraiser.. Perhaps with a joint venture, if needed you could provide the seed money, with the understanding that is paid back from the profits first.. But, permanently give up your own raised funds??.. Even if you are rolling in the dough, you can always find things to spend it on to improve your boys program.. A super trip, a couple of decent smaller trips, a troop trailer, etc, etc.

          A pack would help with feeding the troop, but if they don't belong to the same CO, there is a big chance they will not come to your troop, but shop around for any troop in the area.. A venture crew, if too close and with an adult leader who is a strong influence starting to prefer the Venture Crew to the troop could be a killer.

          We had that.. Rather then a place for boys who tire of BS to go, the adult leader tried to recruit her Venture crew members by stealing them from the troop.. "Come to Ventures, no uniforms, girls, we will complete your Eagle rank, blah, blah, blah.. Then after trying to steal the scouts, had the nerve to try to piggy back onto the troop activities.. One was a trip to Nantucket Island, she was told "NO" totally.. So she felt it being a free country, she could just take her group on the same ferry on the same weekend, rent the same bikes, bike to the same campsite, and the Troop couldn't keep her from following them.. She was at the time the troop outdoor coordinator, so she was booking the trip for the troop, and planned to book the same for the crew.. She came within inches of being fired as the Troop outdoor coordinator.. And though she didn't follow she was pissed for a long time.. She also complained that the Troop leaders were EXPECTED to take on leadership roles in her Venture crew, even though their scouts were not involved and they had no interest..

          This is my bad experience.. This may not be your bad experience.. But, you are hitting some similarities that make my antennas go up..

          If Adult leaders are in a couple of the units Pack, troop, crew.. This COULD be a good thing, if the person knows that all are separate, and are not a personality that manipulates situations.. I don't think I would like these people to be in as big a position as the key three of these units, unless a key three of one, and not a key three of the other.. These positions are large, and time consuming. But, it could be good for communication between the groups.. It just is the person sitting on the fence between the two, should not feel they have the right to commit one group to the other for anything.. They just are the voice to pass the communication onto the other group for them to decide on.


          • wendyscout
            wendyscout commented
            Editing a comment
            I appreciate your honest input. It validates the concerns many of us have. The committee chair has appointed two of her friends to the committee (advancement chair and general member) - and those friends support whatever the CC wants. When the CC asked the committee to provide $200 to the cubs, they were outraged that I asked for cub parents or at least their cub leader or committee chair to come to introduce themselves to us before we committed $ to them. The CC's friend was outraged and lectured me on how boys in the boys and girls club don't have any money and can't do this without financial support.

            The rest of us (SM, ASMs, me, the treasurer) disagree when we are up for a battle. The COR only sees good in everyone (which is sometimes good, sometimes dangerous), and won't replace her. I'm helping the treasurer with our budget closeout from 2013, and see some questionable or vague spending - not a huge amount, but enough to raise my antennae.

            So I was hoping I had an easier way for us to decline than to go through the battle with her.
            Thanks again for your help - I'll probably be back with more questions along our path!

        • #8
          Starting a BSA unit is not cheap. If they do not have financial help from either their CO (Boys/Girls Club), or the Cub Scout parents, this Pack will NOT sustain itself for long.

          One question - you said that there is no parent support for this new Pack - do they have any registered Cub Scouts at all?

          If your CO did not have the "bandwidth" (money/people/youth/etc) to form their own Cub Pack, why would they go along with THEIR money being used to fund a barely (or non) functioning Pack across the street? They will most likely need every cent they can get their hands on to fund their brand new Venture Crew.

          Get the Charter Org Rep (COR), and the head of the CO, involved. If the CO wants to help out a local Pack, let them use other CO money, and not take money away from their Troop's Scouts. For that matter, if they are going to be giving money to another CO, why not help out the Pack already in existence, and strengthen their ties there?

          Bottom line - this money belongs to the CO, and the BOYS, not to the Troop CC.


          • #9
            preferred would be cub scouts sharing your CO, and Ventureing with a different CO, unless the troop really embraces and works together to make the Crew work for it, not against it.. It helps to be tied to your Pack.. It helps if the Venturing Crew does not see you as their "feeder troop" but rather is open to recruiting drop out Boy scouts from a bunch of troops (Once they decide for various reason, to drop from the troop.. And also know they need to just recruit from without.. The Pack and Troop go hand in hand as when you age out of Cubs that is when you are allowed to join the Troop.. Venturing is good, if done right with leaders who know the right from the wrong way to recruit.. But since ages overlap and advancement overlap.. If done wrong, it can destroy a troop.. Or, in our case, our troop destroyed the Venture Crew. But not without a large battle that did not just stay at the adult level, but affected the scouts.. It took a few years to mend.. And the scouts were very upset with the battle between the adults.

            If your COR will not fire the CC, then you do have one other option, but use it wisely.. You can go past the COR and discuss it with the Institution Head (unless the COR is your Institution Head).. You should make sure you have totally, seriously talked it over with the COR, and perhaps then let them know you will be discussing it with the IH.. That way they don't feel that you went over their head, and they had no forewarning.

            The CC should not deny parents who want to be voting members of the committee.. They maybe wont assign them jobs, if shes a control freak.. But get more parents to sign an application and go to committee meetings so they can out vote the CC and her 2 friends.. She can't deny them a vote.. And the COR should support you bringing in more committee members, if they see good in everyone..


            • #10
              Somebody else already said this but I think it important to reinforce. The CC (or Treasurer for that matter) does not have the ability to unilaterally decide where to spend the Troop's money. The troop committee and the treasurer make the call.

              Said again, the Troop's money. Not the CC's money. How were those funds raised? By the boys either through dues or money-earning projects to support the Troop.

              From the BSA Troop Committee Guidebook for Successful Troop Operation (ISBN 0-8395-4505-3):
              Troop Finances Proper Management of the troop's finances will allow your troop to achieve its program goals. The recording, disbursing, and budgeting of troop funds, along with unit money-earning project assistance, is the responsibility of the troop committee and its treasurer.
              I would have a problem with money raised for the boys of one troop being given away - even if for another Scout unit - but especially given the circumstances describes by the OP.


              • #11
                One other idea.. First off if your CC has 2 friends on committee, you need the Treasurer and 2 other committee members.. But, vote for a 2 signer checking account. And have signers be treasurer, CC (if you must), SM, and if one more someone not of the CC's buddy group.. This is a good checks & balance if you are questioning missing funds..

                The CC doesn't have a vote on the committee except to break a tie. Therefore if she only has two friends who can vote, but you have 3 who can vote, you will out number them.


                • #12
                  One other idea.. First off if your CC has 2 friends on committee, you need the Treasurer and 2 other committee members.. But, vote for a 2 signer checking account. And have signers be treasurer, CC (if you must), SM, and if one more someone not of the CC's buddy group.. This is a good checks & balance if you are questioning missing funds..

                  The CC doesn't have a vote on the committee except to break a tie. Therefore if she only has two friends who can vote, but you have 3 who can vote, you will out number them.

                  Also if the CC is bringing in Friends from outside the troop "parents".. You can vote for parents only -or- if the friends are of the CO (members of the church or whatever the CO is).. Then your COR might push for parents or CO members.. But, you can limit the committee to not include people off the street that the CC just drags in to stack the deck.


                  • #13
                    For your reference, here's how our crew handled finances. It made for a bumpy road because various adults who were great at solving problems were forced out of the equation, but it poured could water on any "drama sparks" before there were flames to fan ...
                    Registration/transfer fees were paid up front by the interested members (a couple of boys and girls and their families who wanted to go on a high adventure). Other expenses were paid by the venturers.
                    While we were waiting for the paperwork to go through, the troop treasurer accounted for funds being collected for the HA. He also helped our crew treasurer handle accounts.
                    As guests of another crew, some boys went on a different HA that came in under budget and donated the surplus to the crew. I asked any other potential donors to wait for the crew president (the lead YOUTH in venturing) to present a plan for how the money would be spent.
                    Other troop leaders have offered equipment and time, I made it clear that they were not to lift a finger for the crew until approached by a youth requesting them to do so.
                    So my advice to you is that your committee only hear from venturers regarding requests for financial support. Tell your CC flat out that you will oppose any adult-initiated requests for support for what is supposed to be an organization lead by youth and young adults.
                    I'm sure if a crew officer presented even a half-baked plan of how they would use their start-up funds, you all would give them assistance. But aside from knowing the crew schedule so you all can plan your calendars accordingly, if there is no youth at the table your committee should not dwell much at all on how the crew's doing.
                    Last edited by qwazse; 01-06-2014, 10:04 AM. Reason: Paragraph marks and formatting!