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  • needs some advice- dealing with another leader

    I had been holding webelos in the same place, same time as the wolves, so that we have two adults in the room. This week the webelos are going to complete our last project (wood) for craftsman. We need tools, so we need to go to someone's house. I asked around. The wolf leader heard about it and told me she had tools and we could do something together- wolves and webelos. I told her what I had planned. She didn't like it. She wants to make a beautiful Christmas decoration and spent time last week, searching pintrest to find something. I don't want to do that, so I spent the week finding somewhere else to hold webelos. We are going to make catapults. The boys will absolutely love them. They will be fun to play with. I even mentioned it to my husband and he told me all about the time his den made catapults as webelos. (He went on and on- and 30 years have passed since he was a webelos.) I know this is a project the boys will enjoy! I've got webelos all set. I will have 2 other adults present (we're holding the meeting at their house). The wolf leader is now unhappy because I don't want to have scouts with her. She was real excited about making her Christmas decoration. I see no reason why she can't hold wolves herself (with a parent volunteer) and they make a beautiful Christmas decoration, while we make catapults.

    Any good ideas on how to smooth things over with the wolf leader? Please don't tell me I should just make the Christmas decoration with them. We already made boring Halloween decorations for artist.

    PS- The bears and wolves will not combine because bear leader refuses to do anything with the wolf leader. They are involved in a neighbor feud.

  • #2
    Umm...I think this is another case of confusing 2 deep leadership with no one on one contact. You do not need to have two deep leadership at a den meeting. Unless LDS has rules above and beyond BSA rearding this. It is a good idea to have more than one adult present for the wolves, and your Webelos activity sounds like it is off site and could be considered an outing so you should go with two deep there.

    Comment


    • christineka
      christineka commented
      Editing a comment
      LDS rules state 2-deep for everything.

  • #3

    Anyways to smooth the water I would suggest offering another event with the other den. Could be anything, bet those wolves would like to hang out with the Webs. Bowling, a joint den meeting where it was all games (mix up the teams) that you plan, a short hike to pick up trash (wolf + web buddy pairs).

    Don't do the boring craft, however. Webelos clue in real fast to boring.

    Comment


    • #4

      Yeah, normally meeting with another group is good, but due to different age and rank requirements you need to do your separate things.. This just sounds like different interests for different age groups. For wolves the catapults might be too big a project for them due to age, and the parents are still in high protection mode rather then letting them try their wings. So catapults might sound too dangerous.. Meanwhile the Webelos are done with the artsy craftsy stuff and wants something more challenging and more rugged activities.. Also wolves is still where parents choose the activity, Webelos is where in order to get prepared for Boy Scouts the boys start having more and more of a say in their activities..

      As AKdenldr says, seeing if you can organize a different activity to show this decision is nothing personal against her or her den.. But, also a heart to heart discussion of the fact that due to the age and the rank of your boys, you are both right now looking at things from different perspectives. The Webs den is run more by the boys interest not yours, and this is what they wanted, your role as den leader is to support them in their wishes.. Think of it not only as making peace, but an opportunity of educating a den leader who two years from now needs to run a Webelos den..

      Just curious as to what type of catapult.. Large one that need real lashings and poles for perhaps launching something like water balloons, or I saw one that is popsicles and a small launch pad for launching marshmallows.. I was looking at the popsicle one, but was wondering if you are going whole hog..

      Comment


      • #5
        MT, I have yet to meet a boy who would beg his mom to look up ornaments online when there was a chance to join with some older scouts in making catapults (of any size). But, yeah, I agree that everyone should keep this about the boys and try to find another weekend where you all can make decorations (and cookies).

        Comment


        • #6
          Well that's what I mean. The boys want catapults, and at the rank of Webelos if they want catapults the DL role is to support their wishes.. At the rank of wolf, the parents just plan organize and do for the scouts (with maybe the scout getting to do some of the work, maybe).. Which means due to age and rank the two DL's currently are looking at their roles as DL from two different perspectives.

          No given the choice the boys would go for the catapults.. But when your in 2nd grade at 6 or 7 years old, whatever mom & dad say they are going to do, you do.. And really you will have fun in most cases.. Unless truly gifted a 6/7 yo is not of an age to look around and think up something on their own to do and tell mom & dad "Sorry this ornament idea stinks, lets do ABC instead."

          Comment


          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            Lol. Times are changing Moose. My youngest is a bear now but even last year he had no problem telling me this (book, game, craft, whatever) stinks and "I want to play Minecraft". That game is like crack.

            The Popsicle stick aplastic spoon marshmallow catapult is fun for wolves as well they just need help putting it together. From now on I am using cotton balls, they end up eating all the marshmallows even if they were stepped on.

          • qwazse
            qwazse commented
            Editing a comment
            KDD, sad story: A scout missed our last campout because he volunteered to make a Minecraft pyramid for social studies class, and got behind in completing his assignment. Sadder yet, the boys got into chopping so much wood, that he could have spent the weekend stacking it into pyramids!

        • #7

          So what is Minecraft. I got two totally different versions of Minefield, but no Minecraft.. Tried looking it up, it shows a video game, which if your just talking you and your son not at a scout event, may be what it is.. Otherwise I doubt it's that unless you are going for your videogame beltloop.

          Do the cotton balls fling well?.. I was debating doing popcorn rather then marshmallows, but still will be messy when stepped on, and probably still would be picked off the shoe and eaten.

          Comment


          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            I am talking about Minecraft the video game. Mostly played on a PC but on phones as well. It is actually a rather benign game but very addicting for a lot of boys. FYI: Terraria is a similar game that seems to be gaining traction with this age group.

            The cotton balls do not work nearly as well as marshmallows especially outside. Ping pong balls shoot great but are not as cheap as I think they
            should be. On the plus side chasing them down does burn some energy. Popcorn might be a good one for outside especially if you don't have to clean it up. Just don't use Trails End.

            The last time we used marshmallows for some game it was a real pain with the boys fighting over them, stuffing them in pockets and everything you can imagine wolves would do with them.

          • dedkad
            dedkad commented
            Editing a comment
            We used cheeseball puffs when my Webs built their catapults this year. They were each given 10 cheeseballs to try to launch in their buddy's mouth. Still gets messy, but you can't eat them if they get stepped on because they disintegrate. Also won't make a gummy mess on the ground or shoe if you can't find them to pick them up. Too light to use outside with any wind, though.

          • Tampa Turtle
            Tampa Turtle commented
            Editing a comment
            My son made me play Minecraft. It was pretty fun computer version of Legos where you can make some cool stuff. If I was still Cubbing I'd play a little to help talk to the boys.

        • #8
          I saw the catapult at roundtable. You take a block of wood (I have a bunch left over from finishing the basement.) Then you screw a small block on top of it. (We'll have to cut that small bit.) Then glue a clothespin on top, gluing a craft stic to that, with a plastic bottle top on the end. I'm still debating about what to launch. Maybe I'll bring a few different things for launching and the boys can test to find out which materials fling best. We could even make a science experiment out of it.

          As for minecraft, I have some issues with it. I teach the 4-5 year old class at church. I have had some major issues with one particular boy. (I suspect a number of special needs, such as add, odd, and asperger's, but mom doesn't believe in labels.) I babysat this boy one day. He showed up with the ipad. He played it nonstop for 5 hours! Finally, he had to go to preschool and his teacher, having great authority made him leave it behind. I turned it off. After preschool. the boy displayed his odd behaviors. Fortunately, my kids started music practice, which calmed him down considerably. At church, if he colors the picture I bring, he turns it into zombies. I realize zombies are the big thing these days, but they are not appropriate in a church class of 4 and 5 year olds. Anyway, fortunately, I have not heard anything about zombies at scouts. I've only heard about mario kart.

          (Interestingly enough, the mother of this little boy is the wolf leader.)
          Last edited by christineka; 11-18-2013, 11:03 AM.

          Comment


          • Nike
            Nike commented
            Editing a comment
            Curious if your zombie lover has older siblings. There is a big gap between #1 and #2 &3. My younger kids knew and did things way before their classmates because of their big brother.

          • christineka
            christineka commented
            Editing a comment
            Yep. #2 (#1 is not in the household) is 18 or 19? and #3 is 13. Both of those boys have diagnoses and have obsessions with video games and movies.

          • dedkad
            dedkad commented
            Editing a comment
            Our Council just held a one-day zombie-themed day camp. They had a huge turnout with something like 400 boys in attendance. Zombies are big at this age!

        • #9
          All these catapult contraptions always sound interesting, but will any of them stick Jello to the ceiling? or is that a college level catapult project?

          Stosh

          Comment


          • moosetracker
            moosetracker commented
            Editing a comment
            Sure Stosh trying to paint horns on the little cubbers foreheads.

        • #10
          Mini catapults painted in Christmas colors as ornaments. Smooth over with this leader and let them know that sometimes both groups benefit from doing things in an age appropriate environment.

          Comment


          • jblake47
            jblake47 commented
            Editing a comment
            Let's see who can launch Santa and his tiny little reindeer the furthest!

            Or maybe have a rooftop target downrange and those that can put the sleigh on the roof. Extra special prize for getting Santa down the chimney, too.

            Oh, man, could I have fun with this one!

            Dwarf tossing and elf bowling is so passe!

            Stosh

        • #11
          I seriously wonder why the practice of having ladies as den leaders. I think the boys would have much more fun with guy leaders. I try, I really do, but I know that guys would let loose and allow the boys more fun.

          Comment


          • Brewmeister
            Brewmeister commented
            Editing a comment
            It goes back to the whole "Den Mother" thing. I agree with Stosh's assessment, and unfortunately it has tended to keep the CS program rooted in arts-and-crafts rather than the outdoors.

          • jblake47
            jblake47 commented
            Editing a comment
            For the Tigers, exploring the program for me should be the emphasis. Hanging out and going to really neat places is #1.

            Wolf/Bear should be the arts/craft kinds of things. Learning to make things, working together, team building, being successful are #1

            Webelos 1 & 2 are the transition years. Some craft things, but more along the line of woodworking, kinds of things, a bit of camping, getting out and finding out what sleeping in a tent is like, campfire hanging out, enjoying nature, exploring something other than what's inside some building.

            Webelos can start the introduction of male role models or gals that really like the outdoors. Kinda a pre-adventure exploration time for the boys.

            Boy Scouts? - let the adventure begin, full-time!

            Sure, the boys still make the wood duck houses, but they go out and put them up and maintain them.
            The do the Readyman thing, but do it to a fuller extent all the way to back-country first aid.
            They go to sleeping in the local state park to BWCA.

            And seriously, how many 16-17 year-olds want to be hanging out at the wilderness campfire with Mom? Both my mom and dad were avid outdoor campers their entire life, but I still didn't want either of them hanging out with me and my buddies. That goes beyond the male/female issue!

            Stosh

          • christineka
            christineka commented
            Editing a comment
            I am not arts and craftsy! I did the church's girl program for a year and we did one craft item the whole time. (There was only one to pass off.) I like to focus on doing things, gaining experiences, and learning by doing. Back when I was first a den leader, I had two others paired up with me. They did the craft stuff and the boring stuff (discussing choices).

        • #12
          You're a realist, Stosh, Boys want to be with other boys and men. By eight or nine they are sick of moms and sisters. Our pack began to reach out to the troop and ask for an ASM to be the WEB ADL in order to shepherd both boys and parents into the Boy Scout frame of mind. It works well.

          Comment


          • jblake47
            jblake47 commented
            Editing a comment
            That's what I did as ASM and it was indeed a high point in my Scouting career. Those two years were a blast!

            Stosh

        • #13
          I think there are good leaders and bad leaders. I've worked with men who do those foam craft kits for everything, read straight from the book, have little creativity in presenting the program. I've worked men who build giant slingshots to fling pumpkins into the woods. I've worked with women who can put out a table full of craft sticks and rubber bands and guide the scouts into building bridges and other mini-engineering marvels. And I've worked with women who are stuck on Pinterest crafts and focus on how 'cute' the project will be to take home. Some adults are better suited to working with kids than others. Some adults are better at focusing on the intent of the project rather than the way it looks. As a CC, I'm grateful to each and every adult that volunteers to work with our scouts, as long as they are good role models and do the job with a good heart. When I read threads like this here, it always seems like other units have their pick of leaders and can chose the candidate with the best qualifications. Ha! I wish!

          Christina, I think you should be able to tell the other leader that you are sure her Wolf den will enjoy the project she has planned but you are going to make catapults since they will fulfill the requirement for either Craftsman or Engineer and the Christmas decoration does not. Then proceed with your plan however she responds. We've made great catapults with shoe boxes, pencils, rubber bands and duct tape, the directions are in the Webelos book and don't require woodworking tools. Also, I like whatever projectiles I have in my supply box that are FREE!

          Comment


          • #14
            I sent my apology, explanation. I hope it is accepted. This leader did nothing for 9 months, so it is really great that she's thinking up ideas, planning, and executing them for the wolves. (She only started doing it because I was instructed that I couldn't do it for her anymore and when nothing was done, parents started complaining.) Before, I was the bear leader and I could match up bear and wolf achievements and do both without any help. Now, I can't match up webelos and wolves. Maybe we could do some, if all the boys were starting at the same point, but they aren't. My boys have almost earned their aol. One boy is about to move on to boy scouts and so I want to finish up the badges we've started. I don't have time to meander about the book. The bear leader and wolf leader are currently in the middle of a neighborly feud and therefore cannot meet together, so the scoutmaster took pitty on the wolf leader and told her she could meet at the same time/place as webelos. On that first meeting, the wolf leader told me she wanted to do joint gathering activities and opening ceremonies. I said that was fine- meaning- as long as it's what the webelos are doing, I can bring some more for the wolves, especially considering the fact that wolf leader couldn't show up on time to save her life. For the last few meetings, I've brought the gathering activity, started all the boys on it, then wolf leader shows up 10 minutes later with her gathering activity and she insists on finishing it! So, we do the opening 30 minutes into the meeting and then we're scrambling to finish our main activity! The last few meetings she even wanted to combine the main activity. I had to put my foot down to say, "no- We are doing webelos over here and you can go over there to do your thing." I have a boy, who just earned his webelos last week, who would not have earned it if we had done the awesome activity the wolf leader planned. Her activity was a great one! She brought her police officer husband to talk with the kids and do some activities. I do not deny that it would have been beneficial for my webelos, too- it just wasn't on track for what they needed to accomplish that week. I hope she understands that this isn't about her. I like her just fine. I just don't want to combine scout activities with her.

            Comment


            • #15
              I looked up the craft stick catapult. My 6 year old had to do a science experiment. (Any kind) I helped him build the catapult, then we collected stuff around the house, he hypothesized, then he flung, recorded, and analyzed. Now that that's over, he, the 4 year old, and the 8 year old are flinging more things. Catapults are super fun!

              Oh, I talked to the wolf leader. She says she's not mad. She just isn't sure what she's going to do, except she found some pattern for snowmen book ends and thought they'd be a nice gift, but she doesn't know where to hold scouts, and even though I already got one of her boys' parents to come to the meeting, she doesn't want to hold scouts alone, and she's so sick and tired of scouts, that she thinks she'll just not have scouts again till next month...

              Comment


              • moosetracker
                moosetracker commented
                Editing a comment
                http://www.scouting.org/filestore/hi.../33832_WEB.pdf

                Don't know if it will help though. Sounds like she found something to make, but is still unable to pull the instructions off the pages and put it into practice.

              • christineka
                christineka commented
                Editing a comment
                You know those older boys I mentioned earlier that she has. Neither one of them did anything in either cub or boy scouts. She is not a scout person, but apparently this is the 3rd time she's been put into scouts.

              • Nike
                Nike commented
                Editing a comment
                And right there is the problem: put in scouts. Voluntelling is just about the worst way to organize a group.
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