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Went to roundtable for the first time

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  • Went to roundtable for the first time

    Those people are a bit weird! Anyway, in webelos breakout, they said we can do one thing and make it count for 2. Really? Isn't that cheating? Some examples: make a catapult out of wood- counts for craftsman and engineering. Make a floor plan and an escape plan- counts for readyman and engineering, make a puppet- counts for showman and craftsman. Man, I wanted my boys to work! So, really and truly this is okay?

  • #2
    That seems to be an approach that some take. It probably explains some of those dens were lots of the web boys earn all the pins, especially in the shortened lds program. I didn't double count -- liked to do one webelos activity pin at a time as intended by the program. I did count things the kids did in school however. Camp also helped, but not everything done at camp was done well enough for us not to repeat.

    Run your program with integrity.

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    • #3
      Yes, you can overlap, but you really need to be sure you're following the spirit of the requirements. If the catapult beam was sanded and stained, mounted with with a dowel jigged fulcrum, bearing a coat of arms, and the missiles were hand carved from granite, then yes, credit the boy for all three (engineering, craftsman, and art). This kind of thing works well for units that have a scout house where boys can keep their projects and pull them out every week to refine them. If the boys aren't picking up the skills intended in the requirements, then a DL is short-changing them. But, sometimes doubling up increases the creativity and pride a boy puts into his work.

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      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        That is exactly what we did....Made a boy sized catapult Made angry birds out of paper machet.......painted it up.......Bang, enginneer craftsman, art in one project.

    • #4
      I try not to double as much as possible, I really want the boys to be proud of what they have done so we put a lot of time and effort into every single project. If there was a reason to double up like qwazse said where the work was so intricate and really fit all the requirements then maybe. I just don't like to rush the program because when you get done then what are you going to do? I hate feeling like I am reaching for things to do and not giving them a great scouting experience.

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      • #5
        I will concur about doubling up on many of the items. If you take a look at the Outdoor Group, you could lump them all into one fantastic weekend. Outdoorsman, Naturalist, Forrester and Geologist. Granted you can get a start and complete a majority of these. But there are some requirements that will/could be finished later.

        Would I do it all in a weekend? No. I would create several Outings that covered the requirements and also to cover them again on later outings for reinforcement and also for those Webelos who didn't make the first outing.

        Again, just like others, I am not there to rush or short-change the Scouts.

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        • #6
          I think it is fine, as Basementdweller said, to use one big project to complete multiple requirements by breaking it down into parts. I don't consider that double-dipping. I think it is important to make sure the Webelos know what requirements they are working upon, let them determine the work as much as possible, and to do the requirements with integrity.

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          • #7
            I try not to count one activity for two requirements, but I think the floor plan is fine for both Engineer and Readyman because there are two distinct activities you are doing with that plan. In Engineer you are drawing a floor plan of your house. Period. In Readyman, you are evaluating that floor plan and deciding which is the best escape route. The boys will decide if it is best to make their way through their house or just head out the window.

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            • #8
              Knowing your boys also comes into play here. If they are science/mechanic types, maybe you want to do that catapult with no-nonsense materials and standard weights so the boys can test the effect of longer vs. shorter arms, stationary vs. mounted on wheels, cup vs. sling. In which case, there's little room for art and craftsmanship. The thought of waiting to fire their product while the paint dries will drive them nuts! You'd best do the other requirements with a different project on a different night.

              With son #1's den we hustled up and built rockets to launch in one day. Nobody thought about artistry.
              With son #2's den we focused on individuality of design. I don't even recall if everyone completed their rocket.

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              • #9
                Topic is not really about round table as much as one activity completing multiple requirements.

                Double counting. Been there. Dealt with it. Been on both sides of the fence. **** I'm more concerned about the quality of the scout program and helping the scouts grow than about inferring things about other volunteer's integrity. That just doesn't seem scout-like. ****

                The "double counting" that gets me is where requirements are completed because they've done that in school or elsewhere. It's probably legit because the requirements do not all say "in a den activity" or " as part of a scouting event". So if the kid did it and It was at school but it's done. But if you don't agree with that, what about a home schooled kid who uses a MB book to learn? Should he get credit in scouts too because it's for his home school? Are home school student different than public school students?

                My big issue is when it weakens the program. I've had parents let me know their scouts won't be at a Webelos den meeting because the scout already completed it the activity at school. I've got an issue with that in that you either support your den or you are only looking out for yourself and that's not scout-like.

                Double counting is probably okay too unless it explicitly says to not count items used as part of another requirement. BSA does call it out when it's required.

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                • #10
                  How do you get these boys, who want to do a great job on their craftsman projects? We did tangrams with the wood. I showed the boys how to draw the lines and the whole mathematics of making the shapes. Only my son used mathematics and a ruler to make the lines. The other boys just drew the lines (that weren't very straight and were not precise at all) and then cut themselves some sloppy shapes. These boys (minus my son, who is a perfectionist) have the mentality that they would like to do the most with the least amount of effort.

                  Comment


                  • King Ding Dong
                    King Ding Dong commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Ah, the BFM syndrome.

                  • qwazse
                    qwazse commented
                    Editing a comment
                    You gotta take your boys as they come to you. But there are things you can do to encourage behavior in a particular direction. One thing is at the end of each achievement have the boys vote on whose project they like the best. Have a "most popular project" sticker. Or, have the winner pick the snack that will be served at the next meeting (if you do that sort of thing).

                • #11
                  From Scouting Magazine's "Ask the Experts" segment:

                  "Question from Dave: Can a single task satisfy the requirements of two (or more) separate merit badges? For example, Scouts in my troop are going to visit a courthouse and view live court to satisfy a requirement for the Citizenship in the Community merit badge. Can they use that same visit to satisfy a requirement for the Law merit badge? My instinct is no, Scouts need to complete each merit badge independently, but I thought I would Ask the Expert.”
                  Answer from Chris Hunt, BSA Advancement Team: “We address this in the revised Guide to Advancement, which should be released within the next 30 days. It will be posted on scouting.org first as a PDF and then printed and distributed to Scout Shops. The book is in final editing and the actual wording may get some minor adjustments. If folks follow us on Twitter they will be the first to know about the release of GTA 2013.”

                  4.2.3.6 Fulfilling More Than One Requirement With a Single Activity
                  From time to time it may be appropriate for a Scout to apply what was done to meet one requirement toward the completion of another. In deciding whether to allow this, unit leaders or merit badge counselors should consider the following.

                  When, for all practical purposes, two requirements match up exactly and have the same basic intent—for example, camping nights for Second Class and First Class ranks and for the Camping merit badge—it is appropriate and permissible, unless it is stated otherwise in the requirements, to use those matching activities for both the ranks and the merit badge.

                  Where matching requirements are oriented toward safety, such as those related to first aid or CPR, the person signing off the requirements should be satisfied the Scout remembers what he learned from the previous experience.

                  Some requirements may have the appearance of aligning, but upon further examination actually differ. These seemingly similar requirements usually have nuances intended to create quite different experiences. The Communication and Citizenship in the Community merit badges are a good example. Each requires the Scout to attend a public meeting, but that is where the similarity ends. For Communication, the Scout is asked to practice active listening skills during the meeting and present an objective report that includes all points of view. For Citizenship, he is asked to examine differences in opinions and then to defend one side. The Scout may attend the same public meeting, but to pass the requirements for both merit badges he must actively listen and prepare a report, and also examine differences in opinion and defend one side."
                  The Ask the Expert floodgates are wide open. I'm now getting roughly 50 emails a week with Ask the Expert questions, a sign that Scouters out there care enough to seek out the right answer to their burning BSA queries. (By the way, ask your question by emailing scoutingmag@gmail.com, subject “Ask the Expert.”) For the third…

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