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boy in two packs, each one changes rank differently- how to proceed?

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  • boy in two packs, each one changes rank differently- how to proceed?

    I thought I'd start a new thread for this topic. We are an lds pack. Lds boys change rank on their birthdays. 8 is wolf, 9 bear, 10 webelos, and 11 is 11 year old scouts (boy scouts just for 11 year olds). We have a boy, who is in a non lds pack, so they advance at the end of the school year. His birthday is in November. He's already wearing his bear neckerchief and slide. Do we say he needs to stay in wolves until his birthday? Or make an exception, allowing him to advance to bears in our pack as well? What if another kid questions this? Just say he's an exception? We can make the exception if we want (I believe), but there's no way he can move on to 11 year old scouts until he's 11. But does it really matter because he's just going to earn stuff with his other pack? (This past year he's only earned a few belt loops and electives with us because he already did everything with the other pack.) It wouldn't be a big deal if bears and wolves were meeting combined as before, but bear leader doesn't like the wolf leader and refuses to work with her. (Should be interesting to see if the wolves accomplish anything this year.)

  • #2
    Don't you have to do what you are told to do anyway. This boys parent is the "cub commissioner" and a "dictator" as you described in the other thread. Not sure what a cub Commisioner is, I assume it is a Unit Commisioner. UC has no authority in a non-LDS Unit. They can only advise. You don't sound very happy with this situation. I wouldn't be either.

    Comment


    • christineka
      christineka commented
      Editing a comment
      Sorry- I meant committee member. She hasn't yet dictated anything regarding her son's rank in our pack. The wolf and new bear leader brought it up. Before I knew he was wearing the bear neckerchief, I responded to them that he could earn arrow points until his birthday. (My son earned his bear 6 months before he turned 10, but he still wasn't allowed to achieve anything for webelos, though it would have been nice to get started.)

  • #3
    So, what this boy effectively wants to do is to work in 2 Cub levels at the same time.

    Sorry, not going to happen. It has to be one or the other, and since the Scout has has his Bear paraphernalia already, he is a Bear Cub Scout.

    One question - where is he registered? Your LDS Pack, or the non-LDS Pack? If he is doing everything with the other Pack, you should contact your council registrar and make sure that is where his primary registration is.

    If anyone comments about his early graduation to Bear, simply tell them that he is not a registered LDS Cub Scout.

    Comment


    • #4
      Dont punish the cub scout or hinder his advancement Let him work with the Den Chief on his skills. Ask yourself are you doing what is best for the boy or what is easiest for the parents? to me it sounds like the latter.
      Put yourself in the Bears shoes. He is proud of what he did. by demoting hime to bear when he did nothing wrong except not have a birthday incordination with his birthday what message are you sending?

      Comment


      • #5
        This sounds fishy to me.
        Why would anybody... boy or parent.... want to be in two packs?
        Why would the leaders want to play along?
        This makes absolutely no sense to me.

        The pack at my son's government school had their round-up last night. Our pack is chartered by our church & our church operates their own school.
        I must admit it crossed my mind that last night to pop into the round-up to meet the leaders and see what they are doing...... primarily to see if I could learn any good ideas, but also I suppose in the back of my mind to consider moving my son if their pack looked much better..... I could go back to being just Dad. It would never even dawn on me to register him in both!

        How does the council even deal with that? They can't even seem to figure out how to register me in my two positions of ADL & ACM

        Comment


        • TSS_Chris
          TSS_Chris commented
          Editing a comment
          Two different positions in one unit are harder for the BSA than two positions in two units. I know DL and CM are exclusive of each other. You can't be both in one unit. I would assume the same applies for ADL and ACM.

          I currently hold the CM position for two Packs, and am MC for a Troop. No issues on the BSA's side there. I even get nice little dropdowns when I log into MyScouting to choose the unit I want to work with. (BTW, good idea of not popping onto that round-up last night. You don't get go back to being just Dad...)

          As for youth, I know a youth can be multiple registered in a Troop and Crew, but I don't know if its possible for them to be multiple registered in two packs.

          I've got a round table tonight. This is a good question to ask my DE to make progress towards my "asker of difficult questions" knot.

        • JoeBob
          JoeBob commented
          Editing a comment
          I'm trying to figure out what the boy will do to participate in two packs.
          Does he do everything twice, once in each pack?
          Does he use two books to keep straight what he's done where?

        • christineka
          christineka commented
          Editing a comment
          The boy started with Tigers in a community troop. LDS do not do Tigers. I haven't asked why they do two packs, but my guess is that 1. he has friends and enjoys the other pack. 2. the leaders are more organized and "with it" than ours, and 3. the parents feel that they should also support the church pack, seeing as how mom is the committee member. The boy has one book and brings it to both packs, though he tends to not bring it to ours and so we rarely know what he has and hasn't achieved before he complains that he's already done whatever it is.

      • #6
        Do LDS units have a separate set of leader and program books ? I have never been able to figure out how a den program works in a LDS unit. How can the Den all be working on the same requirements when they all age out to the next level at different times ? I am trying to imagine how a grade school could operate this way.

        Comment


        • #7
          I love it!
          Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. The boy's obviously already done some things with the other pack, so:
          1. Identify the things he hasn't done.
          2. Ask him what his favorite achievements were and would he like to do those again, helping the other boys in the process?
          If those things are activities the wolf dean wants to do, put him in wolves. If they are bear things put him in bears. This is one of those don't-blind-yourself-by-the-color-of-the-necker moments!

          Comment


          • #8
            "JoeBob commented Today, 07:59 AM

            Editing a comment
            I'm trying to figure out what the boy will do to participate in two packs.
            Does he do everything twice, once in each pack?
            Does he use two books to keep straight what he's done where?"

            I'm thinking he might pick and choose...... when pack A is doing something fun, he'll do that.... but won't bother himself when Pack A is doing something "not fun".... because pack B is doing something fun.

            Just weird. Shouldn't be allowed IMO based on what little I know about the situation.

            Comment


            • christineka
              christineka commented
              Editing a comment
              His mom makes him come to everything. If she's not around, he may choose not to participate, however.

          • #9
            You need to speak to your Council Registrar. I'm no ScoutNet expert, but I don't think it's possible for a youth to be registered in two packs at once. Time to choose.

            Comment


            • Brewmeister
              Brewmeister commented
              Editing a comment
              Not true; both youth and adults can be members of multiple units.

          • #10
            In our Council, you can dual-register. It's frowned upon, but because of divorce, sometimes its necessary.

            Regarding the early Bear... Well, if he's been bridged to Bears with BSA, he's a Bear. LDS has a different program, but once he's started on Bear, he can't "go back" and earn Wolf Electives... that's how we handle summer... if a boy needs summer to finish up, you can bridge them in the fall to start on the new rank, but you can't be working on both simultaneously.

            Once he's a Bear, no reason to demote him to Wolf. Check with your COR if you want to be a stickler... they could say that he can't participate in Den Activities until his birthday, but why bother. He's a Bear, Hat, Necker, Book, and all. If you're not comfortable signing off on his achievements until his birthday, that's your call, but no way can he be earning Wolf Arrow Points with you and working on Bear Achievements with his other Pack.

            Comment


            • #11
              I have no idea how the boy is registered. He did, however only just earn his wolf last night and I know he had not completed the requirements in July- after he was promoted to bear in his community troop. (He just needed to do some stuff at home with his parents.) He started scouts as a Tiger Cub. The LDS church does not do Tigers (since the kids don't start until 8 years old.) The parents then decided to have him move up as a wolf with the community troop before he turned 8 s and then he just continues. We have had issues with the boy not wanting to repeat something he already did, even though I proved to him that he hadn't mastered the achievement. (Such as when we did flags- he didn't know what anything was on our state flag, nor did he know what the proper colors were, and he couldn't remember how to properly fold the US flag.)

              As for the difficulty of boys coming in at different points of the year, that is why I don't want to use the already-made den meeting plans and prefer a 6 month rotation- where we do all achievements every 6 months along with an assortment of electives. For Bears we can simply alternate which set of achievements to work on each 6 months. It's trickier with Webelos because they have so much to do that I don't really want to go back and cover citizenship and fitness 6 months after the first time, but we will.

              Comment


              • #12
                Also, it would be the easiest thing to just have him do bears with us. The other bear just had his birthday, so they can start together. The other wolf just started and needs to do everything the other boy has already completed. The next wolf will join in October, so not long before there will be two.

                Comment


                • qwazse
                  qwazse commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Looks like you just answered your question.

              • #13
                Oh, I think I'm starting to track. he started in a regular pack since you folks don't do tiger..... but he's now switching to your LDS pack. So he's not really intending on keeping both tracks going in parallel. Do I have that right?
                That being the case, then this question is just about the overlap transition.
                Sorry, not LDS so I can't help.... just trying to understand.

                Comment


                • christineka
                  christineka commented
                  Editing a comment
                  No, he did start in the other since we don't do Tigers, but is continuing in both. I have not asked how long the parents intend to keep him in both packs, but I'd assume at least through cub scouts. The wolf leader in our pack has done almost nothing in the past year. (I was bear leader, created plans that involved both wolves and bears, and carried most out on my own.) The leader who was webelos and now bear has done nothing for the past 4 months. (She may get back into it, but right now it's all an unknown- and as time goes on, things might pop up, especially since she plans to have a newborn baby in 6 months.) I'm sure the community den leaders are more involved, enthusiastic, and have a much better program going on.
                  Last edited by christineka; 08-29-2013, 11:24 AM.

                • King Ding Dong
                  King Ding Dong commented
                  Editing a comment
                  What kind of vitamins do have to take to plan on having a baby in six months ?

                  Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

              • #14
                It seems to me that the only real problem is that the boy is complaining. You might treat that as a discipline issue. it's very disrespectful.

                Comment


                • qwazse
                  qwazse commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Scouts don't like to repeat the subject they like the least. Unfortunately, that's usually the skill that needs repeating.
                  I have boy scouts who keep forgetting their flag protocol. They complain. We ignore them. Make them do it until they achieve flawless execution. Every patrol has to be its stand-alone color guard by the end of the year.

              • #15
                Christina:
                Coming late to this topic.
                What's your position within the LDS Pack? I know the mother is a Committee Memeber of the LDS Pack.
                You need to check with the DE for the Charter's on both Units. Since the LDS pays for all Charters, how is the Parents paying for the non-LDS Pack?

                Once a rank is submitted to Council, the Scout is that Rank. So there really isn't any turning back in that area. Yes, the LDS has it's process. (Not debating that at all)

                It's going to get weird quick when he gets to the 11 Year Old program. Since he is still within the Primary but can be in Boy Scouts. The 11 YO's basically kept seperate from the Troop in the LDS world. This is not the case within the non-LDS.

                As for the Leadership part within the Primary, you might need to go to the Bishop and explain that these people are not living up to their Calling. My one suggestion is to see if there are Young Men who are Eagle's and not Married yet to see if they want to come help out in the Primary. Some of them just might love doing this. It's giving back to Scouts and their Ward.

                Comment


                • King Ding Dong
                  King Ding Dong commented
                  Editing a comment
                  What is the significance of the Eagle's marital status ?

                • christineka
                  christineka commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I have asked the scout master if there were any boy scouts willing to help. There are none. The boy scout organization didn't have very good leadership, until a few months ago. Our ward has issues and not just with scouts.
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