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Is BALOO required for pack campout ?

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  • #31
    If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it is a duck....

    I'd get leaders Baloo trained, it is easy and file trip plans for each trip. It helps protect you for the just in case moment. I hope you never have a moment like that but you never know when that will happen.

    Comment


    • Basementdweller
      Basementdweller commented
      Editing a comment
      Protects you from what exactly????

      the BSA insurance is only secondary insurance.......... So after the injured persons insurance is done it might pick up the copays....

  • #32
    Originally posted by blw2 View Post
    "Basementdweller commented #16.7 I think these should be regularly scheduled and taught by the paid BSA folks out of council. No excuse leaning on volunteers that are too busy to do it.
    And that's why registration fees keep climbing. We all are getting more pathetically dependent on pros for everything. Way to go entitlement generation!

    Comment


    • Basementdweller
      Basementdweller commented
      Editing a comment
      Millennials.......really don't like them......ME ME ME ME ME ME ME

      The cub parents on facebook complain about the condition of the roads or the increase in paramedic response times and then complain about taxes.......

  • #33
    Hueymungus, help me out here. Do you have special knowledge of how BSA insurance works for all the councils in the US? Or are you of the 'can't be too careful' persuasion?

    I found this on the BSA website which suggests that my council is, in fact, following national guidelines. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...urPlanFAQ.aspx

    Q. When do I need to complete a tour and activity plan?
    A. Times when a tour and activity plan must be submitted for council review include the following:
    • Trips of 500 miles or more; or
    • Trips outside of council borders (exception: not to your council-owned property); or
    • Trips to Florida Sea Base, Northern Tier, Philmont Scout Ranch, Summit Bechtel Reserve (you will be asked to present a copy of your tour and activity plan upon arrival),national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or a regionally sponsored event; or
    • When conducting any of the following activities outside of council or district events:
      • Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.)
      • Climbing and rappelling
      • Orientation flights (process flying plan)
      • Shooting sports
      • Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.); or
      • At a council's request (Contact your local council for additional guidelines or regulations concerning tour and activity plans; many have set guidelines for events or activities within council boundaries such as for Cub Scout overnight camping.)
    Regardless, the tour and activity plan is an excellent tool that should be included in preparation for all activities, even those not requiring it. It guides a tour leader through itineraries, travel arrangements, two-deep leadership, supervision qualifications, and transportation.
    Q. Is it common for a council to set up a rigorous review of the tour and activity plan or have our unit submit a plan anytime we meet other than at our weekly meeting place?
    A. Your local council knows your local conditions, common tours, and activies best. We find that many councils set their policies based on those known risks. We suggest you contact your council if it choses to exceed the above policy on when and for what reasons a tour and activity plan should be filed for review.
    Since my council doesn't exceed 500 miles in breadth in any direction, it seems that our unit outings are covered without submitting a Trip Plan as long as we are within the council boundaries, barring the exceptions listed. The second FAQ quoted indicates that this may vary by council.

    Comment


    • Hueymungus
      Hueymungus commented
      Editing a comment
      Not all Council's have insurance for all units like ours does.
      In checking the online Trip Permit process through myscouting I found this link: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/do...PRINCIPLES.pdf It talks about having BALOO for overnighters amongst other things. All Trip Permits are now handled through National.

      Overall, I am the cautious type. Better safe than sorry and on the 5 o'clock news. I would check with your council's health and safety person.

  • #34
    Our training regime includes all the usual: BALOO, OWLS, IOLS, all the online stuff. The trainers I work with make the following allowances: If you take the full SLST series (donuts and coffee in class room, & overnite weekend) AND some supplemental Cub sections, you have earned the BALOO, OWLS and SLST/IOLS all- in--one. BUT,,,, they DO recommend taking the BALOO seperately, like on the two seperate occasions offered in out home District, or one of the neighboring Districts, OR at University of Scouting, OR at the Cub Round-up, which is sort of a U of Cubs separate from the U of Scouting....

    It is all about "The work is done by whoever shows up' and most folks know who is knowledgeable about what. I would not want some of our pros teaching the Scout series, as they have rarely been out in the LNTrenches, so to speak. One I have great respecrt for is a detail guy, good speaker, give you his shirt off his back, but I would be afraid he wouldn't know which end of the hatchet to hold.


    You can't have too much edy-cashun, as my uncle used to say. You might never need what you were taught, but you can't predict when you WOULD need it.

    Comment


    • Hueymungus
      Hueymungus commented
      Editing a comment
      Sorry... I don't like the whole "Lump everything in one class" mentality. OWLS & BALOO are different. I don't know what SLST is except you might be talking about Scoutmaster/ASM Training 1,2,3. IOLS or ITOLS is #4 for SM/ASM Training. So, if you lump those classes together, that is fine since they both work together.

  • #35
    Also, here is what my council has for their requirements for the Tour Plan. http://www.cpcbsa.org/leader-resources/tour-permits
    It is different from what others have posted.

    When is a unit required to complete a Tour and Activity Plan?

    The following are requirements specifically for the Cascade Pacific Council. A Tour and Activity Plan should be submitted if your trip involves any of the following bullets. Regardless, the tour and activity plan is an excellent tool that should be included in preparation for all activities, even those not requiring it. It guides a tour leader through itineraries, travel arrangements, two-deep leadership, supervision qualifications, and transportation.
    · Trips of 50 miles one way and above
    · Trips outside of council borders
    · Trips to a council or district event
    · Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, the Summit Bechtel reserve, or a regionally sponsored event
    · When conducting any of the following activities: Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.), Climbing and rappelling, orientation flights (process flying plan), Shooting sports
    · Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.)
    · Any overnight experience

    Comment


    • #36
      Originally posted by mashmaster View Post
      If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it is a duck....

      I'd get leaders Baloo trained, it is easy and file trip plans for each trip. It helps protect you for the just in case moment. I hope you never have a moment like that but you never know when that will happen.
      Protects you from a bunch of things potentially. By taking the proper training, district will back you when someone gets injured and goes after everyone involved including the leaders. Let alone the fact the training helps provides an amount of consistency across units and leaders. This is the same reason that I insist that all my parents and leaders take in person YPT so that when I tell their darling son to not go into the woods by himself they understand why, and why when I tell them that they are not to enter the restrooms with the boys they understand. I am in a way protecting them as well from keeping them out of potentially sticky situations.

      Comment


      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        You are under the illusion that District is this all powerful thing.......District is nothing, it is simply a management group.

        Council is where the power lies....

        If you think that if you get called in to be deposed on something that the Council attorney is looking out for anything other than the Councils best interest I think your mistaken.

        If hanging you out to dry is what it takes to get the Council off the hook that is exactly what will happen.

        I have had some incidents on campouts from broken collar bone, untied shoe laces, to some bee sting reactions......Most of the parents see it as stuff happens.

      • mashmaster
        mashmaster commented
        Editing a comment
        I transposed district and Council. Of course you wanted to jump all over me for that. While most parents see it as "stuff that happens" there is always the one that doesn't and causes issues. I've had parents complain to council about me telling their son not to play with a 6ft+ tree limb (swinging it around wildly) and not letting him go run off into the woods. Council was right there for me telling the parents that I followed guidlines correctly.

    • #37
      Breathing life into an old thread.

      We currently have three BALOO trained leaders in our pack. We had a "rain out" and as happens, some families that were going to attend the original campout, cannot attend the reschedule (FYI the reschedule was two weekends after the original). Fate has it that ALL three BALOO trained leaders will not be attending. EVERY other leader that will be attending is rank and YPT trained and two Wood Badge trained in attendance. We are within the Council boundaries. EVERY Scout will have a parent in attendance. What would you do? Cancel or go?

      thanks

      Comment


      • #38
        Welcome to the forum!

        First of all Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation training. - Contact your local Boy Scout troops. I'm sure there might be a SM or ASM who may have had that training or is currently teaching it. If not, there's probably many of them that could. I don't know about the Scouters in your area, but if offered a freebie weekend of camping, good food, and all the coffee I can drink, I'm game!

        I don't know how technical the rule is, but if I had a trained Boy Scout leader on-site I'm thinking the council may accept that as a BALOO equivalent. Check with your council.

        I am a SM with 30+ years experience. Done a number of high adventure treks to Philmont and BWCA. I used to teach Webelos Overnighter Training (4 years) Never took the course, just taught it. And yet I've never taken the BALOO course. Am I qualified or not?

        Get down to the council office and do what it takes to make it happen for the boys! Cancelling is never an option!

        Stosh

        Comment


        • #39
          Go up the chain, i.e. Commissioner, DE etc to find out. While I would have no problems whatsoever if someone with Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills, or even Webelos Leader Outdoor Training, taking over, some councils may have issues.

          I know when I first became a TCDL, I had to go through B.A.L.O.O. even thoughI've had a bunch of outdoor training on the Boy Scout level, as both youth and adult, and was the district training chair doing the Boy Scout leader training. That was the council policy under that SE.

          But now,. I think the council would OK with someone with the Boy Scout training doing Cub work.

          Comment


          • #40
            I wouldn't cancel. Worse comes to worst, just consider it family camping, not a pack event, and hope no one gets hurt, since you probably won't get an approved Tour Plan without a BALOO or OWL trained person.

            Comment


            • #41
              It is my opinion (and mine alone) that believes that the reason BALOO came along is because there have been many well-meaning adults taking kids out camping and they themselves have never spent a night in their life under canvas. When I was doing Webelos training it was surprising how many of the WDL's came to the training with a brand-new sleeping bag and tent that they had purchased on the way to the training. (No, I didn't make that up!) I always had to make extra time on Saturday to help the participants set up their tents because they had no idea what to do after they opened the box.

              So, do any of the Cub DL's have this problem, because if they do, it's going to be a real mess when all the parents of the boys show up and have brand new tents and sleeping bags looking for help, too and they look to the DL's who are setting up their tents for the first time?

              The next step? What about meals? What kind of issue is that going to be?

              I'm assuming that BALOO does a lot to mitigate some of these issues. If it doesn't, it should.

              There should be at least one person at the activity who has a background in these basic outdoor overnight issues.

              Stosh

              Comment


              • #42
                Little more clarification: because this is a rain out/ make out, the trip was planned by pack leadership which has the 3 Baloo trained (and two Woodbadge) leaders. Including site recon etc. With the exception of our Tigers, all of these Scouts (and families) have camped together in the past. We are blessed that we have about 10 Eagle scout dads/grandads that attend each campout and they bring a bunch of wisdom. As a by-product of this issue, we have a brand-new outdoor activity chair (Eagle Scout dad) that will attend the next BALOO and we will shoot for a few more. We are heading to the woods!

                PS- wish i had discovered this site sooner, been reading threads and lots of good info, thanks

                Comment


                • #43
                  You can do the activity during the day, but cancel the overnight portion. Let it be known why, and have a district training calender on hand so the numerous complainers can get signed up for training next time.

                  Our Pack is back down to one BALOO, and he is the Webelos Den Leader leaving at the end of this year (he's also our only Rangemaster).

                  Comment


                  • #44

                    Originally posted by jblake47 View Post
                    I don't know how technical the rule is, but if I had a trained Boy Scout leader on-site I'm thinking the council may accept that as a BALOO equivalent. Check with your council.
                    I had a lengthy discussion with our Council's Training Chair (not sure if that's the official title) ~~a long while ago while on my quest to get BALOO. One point we discussed was that we have a few leaders in the pack that are also active in their older sons' troop and they have IOLS, and have the opinion that the "higher ranking IOLS" will supersede the need for OWL or BALOO. WRONG

                    Right or wrong, the idea is that the needs, focus, and requirements are different for these three separate and distinctly different classes.
                    (Never mind that around these parts they lump OWL and IOLS together into a single class. That's a dumb question.... why would you ask!!!)

                    My baloo was a complete joke. Completely held indoors and was no value to me and several other very experienced campers and even Eagle Scouts (yes, I know some eagles can barely pitch a tent...)

                    I would not cancel
                    & I would consider it a family event, making sure that every scout had a parent or guardian and camped with that parent or guardian.... and I would make sure that at least a few other registered and trained leaders (YPT etc...) were on the trip

                    Comment


                    • #45
                      BSA Training is meant to bring Money into the Council's Pockets, plain and simple.

                      Comment

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