Just thrown something out for digestion.
So you schedule a Pack campout with no Baloo trained person in attendance....Your in council so you don't need to get a tour plan. The Campmaster at check in will not look for the training card.... It is a scheduled pack event.....Insurance is good to go.
hmmmm, Sounds all legit to me...No baloo trained person....no way for council or the powers figure it out.......
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ADCinNC commented08-28-2013, 12:11 PMEditing a commentHere is the bottom line,
If you are a Cub Pack camping somewhere other than a District or Council Event, you are required to file a tour plan, which requires a Baloo trained person on the trip. Contact your council for exactly what trips they require one for, as different councils have different rules for requiring a tour plan.
Remember, any event not deemed official by the council can result in no insurance coverage, and by filing a proper tour plan, you are conducting an official pack event:
"This accident and sickness insurance may be provided for Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venturers, and adult volunteer leaders registered in the council, and covers them for accidents and sickness (as well as accidental death and dismemberment) while participating in any official Scouting activity.
08-28-2013, 12:19 PMEditing a commentSo your recreational family camping on council property and you step in a gopher hole????? Whose insurance is gonna pay for the er visit????
If your thinking BSA I doubt it.
Just as a group of families from the same den camp out at a state park they are not covered by BSA insurance....
If my understanding of the insurance is correct......It is secondary insurance only. Your personal health....accident and automotive are the primary insurances.
I hope this entire discussion isn't about insurance.
The right thing to do is follow the rules....have a baloo trained person....and not worry about it.
08-28-2013, 01:51 PMEditing a commentBD for this discussion I am wearing my IH hat. I want to understand the rules and potential lines of liability. My concern is not the twisted ankle, but the copperhead bite, nosedive into the campfire, or fall from a tree or other serious incidents that can occur and people start lawyering up. I don't want to be "that guy" who allowed something to happen and now the whole school district kicks scouts out. (It is a large district).
It is clear to me now the culture of this Pack has been to just go do whatever they want, with no training or concern for BSA policies. I aim to change that.
Given how vague GTSS on some of these issue, I am certainly leaning towards ADC advise and requiring a Tour Plan filed, even though the council does not require it in most cases.Last edited by King Ding Dong; 08-28-2013, 01:57 PM.
"Basementdweller commented #16.7
Today, 11:19 AM
The right thing to do is follow the rules....have a baloo trained person....and not worry about it."
Kinda hard to do when they don't offer the classes.
I've been trying to find a class, even out of my district, since spring 2011. Aggressively looking for something over the summer when our pack slows down, and I have been in contact with several districts, DE's and council higher ups. Not a one that didn't conflict with a pack event, and I think there was only two that did.
I'm signed up to take one at my first opportunity, which is next month.
ditto for leader specific training. Still not signed up for one of those yet. I'm on-line trained, but would like to attend a group class to benefit for the presentation, and group discussion.
I think these should be regularly scheduled and taught by the paid BSA folks out of council. No excuse leaning on volunteers that are too busy to do it.
08-28-2013, 03:37 PMEditing a commentSo what state are you in???? I will find one.
blw2 commented08-28-2013, 03:51 PMEditing a commentThanks.
I'm signed up to take baloo next month. The first opportunity in all this time.
08-28-2013, 08:10 PMEditing a commentWell there ya go......summer is a busy time for the folks who put on training.... especially in a jambo year. The have troop outings troop summer camp and family vacations.... just because most cub scouting stop..most troops keep going.
Wait a minute......so you said not one that didn't conflict with a pack event.........so you couldn't miss one event to get trained?????
Originally posted by Basementdweller View PostWait a minute......so you said not one that didn't conflict with a pack event.........so you couldn't miss one event to get trained?????
Let's turn this around.....Are you implying that if you were a trainer, you wouldn't miss out on going to jamboree to teach a class for the many Cub leaders that need to take a class over the summer?.... but if our Pack planned a trip to say, sleep on an aircraft carrier, that I should miss that trip and make my son miss out, so that I could attend Baloo?
08-29-2013, 12:02 PMEditing a commentBD, were you a trainer offering 4 different IOLS sessions or is that how long your IOLS course is. Mine was a Saturday indoors and a Friday evening through Sunday afternoon.
08-29-2013, 12:18 PMEditing a commentOur IOLS course is 4 weekends.....First three sessions are Saturday only...The last is a full weekend.
I staffed it a couple of years and it really blew a hole in my scouting calendar.....I would need to plan for 3 complete weekends at a scout camp an hour from home.... It impacted the troop program as I was the second adult.
09-01-2013, 09:25 AMEditing a commentI was a one of a 20 member training staff for one of the councils 4 IOLS training courses....Two are in the fall, one winter and one in the spring.
You have read my thoughts on about the cost of the jamboree on local programs.....so I am not gonna rehash it. But you need to remember that there is also Philmont, Northern Tier, Sea Base, MOAB and now Summit adventure base.....Most of these are two week trips....Add in a Week of summer camp, a week or two of family vacation, the 4th of july and summer is toast.
I spent a month this summer away from home at scouting....Toss in my 10 day vacation....summer is over for me..... No way as a trainer or even part of a team I could have put on a decent program........It is a lot of work.
So your complaining that the volunteer team that does baloo is scheduling it on days and times that are inconvenient for you..... my experience is it never is at a great time.
In a nutshell if it were my responsibility I would do the course twice a year......in November for newly recruited cub leaders and February or march for those who just stepped up to prepare for spring pack camping. Ir would not schedule in the summer because my weekends are filled with troop and personal stuff. If it is scheduled multiple times a year I think that is adequate..... the team putting it on just need to make sure they have it on the district and council calendar 6-9 months before the course at least.
Then if the council training team was smart they would have 4 districts do the training twice a year and not in the same month that would give you coverage for all but 4 months. December june july and august.Last edited by Basementdweller; 08-29-2013, 08:49 PM.
Well, actually my real complaint is that the paid folks down at council should be doing it, not sloughing it onto the volunteers that already take on plenty at the unit level. If they don't have the skillset, they should learn it. I know that's not how it operates, but from my perspective it should be......
Given how it is currently set up, I think the paid folks should at least be facilitating in a big way, so that the volunteer teachers have minimal time demands to make it happen.
You're right, it's never a great time....... if the date is set well enough in advance then it can often be worked around. Your plan would likely accomplish this, but it also opens up other issues. Let's say you schedule it on the first Saturday of November. There will very likely be at least some that have something else scheduled on that same Saturday...... For us it's our CO's fall festival. Then let's say you schedule your February class on the 1st Saturday of Feb..... what if my pack ALWAYS has it's B&G that day? I promise you one thing, you aint ever getting any folks from my pack trained....... as a provider, you simply just are not serving your "customer". That's why more frequent choices would be nice......seems to me that one early summer, one late summer, one fall winter, and one spring would fit much better to the need.
From the Cub leader perspective, our summers are the time that we have available for things such as training. Sure there might be the odd family vacation week or even a week off to summer camp for a few of us that would conflict, but things in the summer slow way way down.....
Come this time of the year it's nuts! Round-up planning, 2-3 den meetings per month, a pack meeting, monthly committee meetings, maybe a camping trip or other outing almost every month to plan, attending said trips, popcorn training, popcorn pick-up and coordination, round table, B&G to plan and facilitate, pinewood derby, trips across town to get awards and such at the scout store, etc.....
and then there's homework that needs bird dogging every night, other school events and functions, some might have school sports or band kicking into high gear, many have fall and spring sports kicking into high gear, the holidays.....
.... and then you want me to do what?
08-29-2013, 12:24 PMEditing a commentEverybody's schedule is full.
I have the same issues as you do........
As a District or council trainer you can offer it and know that you will never please everyone on the date.
So you don't like the way training is run or scheduled????? Like I tell my parents........
Here is the application, go take the courses that you need to be a baloo trainer and offer it when you think it needs to be offered.....
You see a need, you can complain about it, whine wimper and cry to council......Why not step up and fix it.
I am telling you once your scout joins the troop you will appreciate there is no down time in Boy Scouting or venturing.
08-29-2013, 12:27 PMEditing a commentThat is why the training team in each district need to put their heads together and try to not overlap the exact same training in the same month....
in our council we have three baloo sessions in the month of october......two on the same day. Wny not space them out one in sept one in oct one in november.
Of course you have the same issues. Everyone with kids does.
You're pushing so hard to do the training in October, November, or whatever.... that tells me that this time is slower for you. Maybe only slightly, but slower none the less. that just so happens to not be the slow time for the students of BALOO..... so I'm pushing for somebody (not you) to offer the required training when I can take it, OR don't require the training!
So, I suggest that we not try to make me as a Pack Scouter fit into your schedule as a Troop Scouter anymore than I should try to make you fit into mine. Again , that's why it's much more logical in my mind to shoulder this training onto council personnel. In my mind, they are getting paid to help me and all of us volunteers put on a good program and as a side result keep their roster numbers up...... so give us some help!
oh, and throwing that junk out about if I don't like something, step up and fix it. That's what I did by making calls, tracking people down, emailing back and forth, asking questions, making suggestions......I could do like the 90% of other scouters, well at least the ones I know, and just soldier on not even looking for the training, but no. When our former CM pointed out that we were light on the required BALOO trained leaders, I started searching
It's funny, I'm thinking back to the surprised look on the DE's and district trainer's faces at a round table some time last year, when I pointed out this need for summer training.... and several other Cub Scouters stepped up in agreement. Like it's never been thought of. I guess it's only logical since most scouters eventually "cross over" to troops..... and that's where much of the focus is.
After all of this work for years, and taking a Saturday out of my busy fall.....I sure do hope that it's valuable. Oh, and did I mention that I cancelled a family camping trip the weekend next month when this course is being offered?
08-29-2013, 02:10 PMEditing a commentCry me a river....
There are what 50 something other weekends available to take your family camping.......
We all make sacrifices for scouting........you just need to decide if it is worth it or not.
I cannot tell you how much family stuff has been shuffled around for scouting....... Two dates that I will never plan scouting on is Anniversary and the wifes birthday.
That is where your wrong there are no slow times, With Patrol outings, Troop outings, PLC meetings, Troop and Pack Committee meetings, Troop meetings, , merit badge outings, But that is when we have new parents all stoked up and ready to take it and locally Packs camp in October and May typically.
08-29-2013, 03:46 PMEditing a commentSorry you didn't like my response.....There are hundreds of scouting volunteers all making sacrifices to put on a decent program for the boys......Canceling a family campout is small potatoes.
"oh, and throwing that junk out about if I don't like something, step up and fix it. "
So making phone calls and demanding a summer offering when the training staff is busy.... How is that fixing it????
I challenge you to step up and make a difference.... Take the appropriate training courses and become the Lead Trainer for your districts SUMMER Cub scout training courses.....Owl and Baloo
Not much into sympathy or excuses..
blw2 commented08-29-2013, 03:57 PMEditing a commentThank you so much!
- Mar 2013
This is fun. Don't let him push your buttons blw2. You both have some excellent points. I don't know your council's schedule but offering training more often would be nice. The problem is getting people to show up. At least in my council I know all the professional scouters are running themselves hard to to keep the camps going. My DE has only a 24 hour break each week. From what I have seen most of these guys are fundraisers and paper pushers so you really don't want them conducting training classes, they would be useless. Better to learn from someone that actually spends time in units. I am just guessing here but I suspect there is only a small minority that want training in the summer, but I would be game. I do accept some excuses for not getting trained but not many. If you work for company owned by Bain Capital, their mantra is "work em like dogs", so a free weekend is rare. My head about exploded when I asked one dad to take climbing training with me. "I can't do anymore training, then I get asked to come along on these events." It took all I had to not tell him his son will not be allowed at these events. Sorry to interrupt your golf tournament on TV.
Awe come on don't let him off the hook that easy. So you think the DE's are rabid during the FOS campaign now.....
Add a training team of professionals.....how much is that gonna cost a year???? $250,000????? So how much needs to be charged pay for it????? Your 50 dollar IOLS course now costs $200?????
Oh there are huge benefits to a Professional training team....
No more Boy scout leaders making the new cub leaders feeling inferior...
No more testosterone laden leaders droning on about their scouting exploits when we are supposed to be learning about LNT or backpacking stoves.
Consistency of the training provided
Removal of IOLS course rivalry's
Quality presentations and equipment
Quality training materials More frequent course offerings
Volunteers can concentrate on their units...
With my woodbadge experience I would have taken a professional training staff. no mom son fighting..... No more grab ass at troop meetings at Gilwell for hours.
08-30-2013, 08:16 AMEditing a commentObviosly the training programs differ greatly. My IOLS training staff was as good or better than corporate session. There were at least 20 of them for a class of 50. No droning on, except for the usual BP, Boer War, Zulus stuff. Timers in the back signaling to end segments. The vast majority of the staff no longer had children in scouting.
I guess consistency accross the country would be nice, but the cost would be huge.
Please carry on you two, I am enjoying the show.
- May 2002
One issue about summer BALOO training is where would it be held?
BALOO should NOT be done indoors. It should be held in an outdoor camp setting. Ideally in a campground that the Cub Packs will be using. Just how easy do you think that would be in Summer - the busiest camping season?
All of our local BSA Cub camps are booked solid for Summer weekends. The same goes for Boy Scout camps. County/state campgrounds are usually booked up too. I don't know about you, but I am not volunteering my backyard for BALOO training. Not that a city backyard would be a very good camp experience!
As a BALOO Course Director, I can tell you that there are a LOT of things that go into putting together a training course. We don't just roll out of bed the morning of with every little thing done for us in advance by Training Gnomes! One of the BIGGEST problems is finding staff! BALOO is not a 1 man show.
On time/place - we have to find a place that has a Saturday opening. We have to find a Course Director that has that Saturday available. We have to find 3-5 other volunteers that have that Saturday available to serve as staff for the course. So then you want us to what? Poll all the Cub leaders in the council to find a Saturday that is convenient for ALL of THEM!
So, now you have a weekend that is convenient for YOU. However, there are no trainers available that day to run the thing. What happens then?
There were a number of times that I had to tap family members to help staff because many of my regular trainers were busy elsewhere. My son, luckily enough, loved working BALOO. He would often get roped into doing segments.
Paid council staff do not have the time to run BSA training. They do not just sit around their desks all day sipping coffee (even though it sometimes seems that way!). They are busy. They often work 10-12 hours a day, and often 6-7 days per week. Many have families of their own that they would like to spend an hour or two with. Many have volunteer service of their own in other organizations. Even with all of that, many DE's will show up at at a training session, even if only for a little while, to check in with the Course Director, and answer any questions.
BSA councils do not have the money to hire professional trainers. Or professional anything else either. Some councils are lucky to have enough money to keep the lights on.
BALOO, like most other BSA training is done using a NATIONAL course syllabus. This means that, other than local rules/regs, the course you take in Spokane, WA, is the same as the course you take in Orlando, FL. If you can not find a date in your district that works for you, check out other districts, and other councils. Pay attention to WHERE the training is being held. The next council over might be holding their BALOO at a camp 15 minutes away from you.
Bottom line, like BD stated, put your time/energy where your mouth is. At the end of the BALOO course, when they pass out the feedback sheets, put a very big X on the box that asks if you would be willing to help staff future courses. Then follow thru.
08-30-2013, 11:56 AMEditing a commentI say a local park with a shelter house would be fine.....If there is a demand for the course find a way to put it on.
I have seen wide inconsistency's in training programs...Including the IOLS course I staffed...
ScoutNut commented08-30-2013, 02:43 PMEditing a commentWe have gone with local parks in the past. Just saying that Summer is not the optimum time to find one available.
My council usually does two BALOO trainings. One in Fall, and one in late Spring.
I doubt that we would have a decent location, the staff, or even enough participants, to field a Summer BALOO course.
08-30-2013, 03:28 PMEditing a commentAgreed....Especially with all of the family reunions and birthday partys going on.....
But if there is interest??????????
KDD my IOLS staff was excellent as well.
08-31-2013, 08:33 PMEditing a commentHold on. Let me get my violin.
09-01-2013, 09:13 AMEditing a commentKDD you really are a horses _-_.
I never complained about the IOLS......My statement was it was a really long course...... We struggle with getting new ASM's to attend.....My belief the length is responsible for the difficulty recruiting Direct contact adult leadership with the troop.
09-01-2013, 09:45 AMEditing a commentAnd you are a grouch, with no sense of humor.
I agree with you that was long for IOLS, but hopefully allowed for some more advanced skills.
- Aug 2013
I would check with your Council about BALOO not being required if you stay within your Council. All Trip Permits go to National now.
Here's the thing..accident or issue happens and lawyers get involved and ask for Trip Permit records. They find that BALOO wasn't on there, but you went anyway. BSA is off the hook, but you and your CO are....
Don't be on the 5 o'clock news for the wrong reasons.
If you go "family camping" nothing counts for Rank Advancement and no Pack equipment used.
BALOO is for Pack Camping.
OWLS is how to put on the Webelos Program and to Camp with them.
ITOLS/IOLS is how to put on the Boy Scout Program and to camp.
OWLS/ITOLS is similar in function, but it's two different programs.
Hueymungus commented08-31-2013, 10:07 PMEditing a commentCorrect. It's not required. However, I think that not knowing about the Webelos program and how to better present it is to the detriment of the WDL and Scouts. Webelos is not all Beltloops and Go-See-Its. It's the bridge between Cubscouts and Boy Scouts. Preparing them for Boy Scouts.
09-01-2013, 09:22 AMEditing a commentLaughing at KDD
09-01-2013, 09:46 AMEditing a commentLaughing is good. Do it more often.
- Jul 2009
As to the tour plan issue, here is a cut and paste from my council's website. With this thread in mind, I asked my DE about it a couple of days ago and the policy hasn't changed since it was posted last year.
Q. When do I need to complete a tour plan ?
A. Times when a tour plan must be submitted for council review include:
- Trips outside of council boundaries (bolding mine)
- Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event
- When conducting the following activities outside of council or district events:
- Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.)
- Climbing and rappelling
- Orientation flights (process flying plan)
- Shooting sports
- Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.)
- At the council's request
09-01-2013, 09:31 AMEditing a commentMy council's policy is exactly the same a sashas
09-01-2013, 09:35 AMEditing a commentI think ADC is confusing what family camping is there is a couple of different kinds....
You are correct the Pack camping is Family camping, but let me add, NOT all family camping is Pack camping
Simply a group of scout families camping together.........they can drink and smoke and howl at the moon....Not at a scout camp
That same group is either at a Pack campout or scout event.....The same behavior isn't acceptable.Last edited by Basementdweller; 09-01-2013, 09:39 AM.
ADCinNC commented09-01-2013, 09:44 AMEditing a commentYou are correct basement, and I have read the link completely and I understand it completely. People here though seem to think pack camping is not family camping, that is my point. When my "family" go camping we are not scout camping, but when a pack goes camping it is called "Family" camping by BSA standards, as Packs do things to include the family.