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Poor Example from an Eagle

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  • #16
    Perd's mentions "unkind, uncourteous, unfriendly" pretty sure that counts as an indirect reference to the law, I think!

    It's actually a subtle thing that Joe Bob is asking. He thinks the boy should be less haughty and judgmental. Teen-age type A personalities don't always see the connection between pejorative speech and discourtesy. They think they are clever ant witty along the lines of their favorite sit-com, belligerent internet blogger, or obnoxious relative. They could be looking themselves in the mirror and rattle those 12 points and not have a clue on how they are falling short. Sometimes the more you say a thing, the less you believe it. It's up to SM's to "polish the mirror" every now and then.

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    • #17
      Just arrived here.

      2 Samuel 12 comes to mind. "You are the man". Perhaps if you can come up with an example for the B/E to chew on .... "Hey, Pete. I have a problem, maybe you can help me with. " And here you explain to him about a young Scout that has a problem in making rank. Could an Eagle like him help? What might he sugggest? Maybe looking at the SLaw and SOath might help. Duty to others? Friendly? Courteous? Helpful? Is an Eagle obligated to return his good fortune to others? How could we / he help in this?
      I would not point out his hypocracy (would he know the word?), being an Eagle Scout but behaving in this way. ,,, but sort of lead him into a corner he has to find his way out of. Does this help?

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      • #18
        Here's a classic example of management vs. leadership. While the "eagle" has managed himself to the rank of eagle, he has taken on no understanding of what leadership means. A common fault in today's program.

        Stosh

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        • #19
          Originally posted by qwazse View Post
          He thinks the boy should be less haughty and judgmental. Teen-age type A personalities don't always see the connection between pejorative speech and discourtesy. They think they are clever ant witty along the lines of their favorite sit-com, belligerent internet blogger, or obnoxious relative. They could be looking themselves in the mirror and rattle those 12 points and not have a clue on how they are falling short.
          Qwaze has a handle on it. The boy is so self centered that he is unaware of and uncaring of how his actions affect others. Incapable of seeing that he may be in error.

          We have a bold plan afoot to have the PLC deal with this. Adult efforts in the past have not reached his heart.
          I initially resisted involving the boys, because I feared that his word-twisting skills would enable him to weasel out. Now I'm hoping that enough of the boys who want to lynch this individual will add strength to their deliberations. Maybe the condemnation of his peers and knowing that the whole troop will be monitoring his words in the future will have a desirable result.

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          • #20
            **At a recent troop meeting a 14 year-old Eagle said to a 13 year-old Tenderfoot: "You've never advanced, and you're never going to advance for the rest of your life." Not very Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, or Kind. As SM, how would you respond**

            Im still not sure why the PLC is involved at this point of your troop maturity. Do you expect them to deal with every discourteous comment made by preteen and teen boys in the troop? Discussing how to deal with bad behavior is challenging enough, now they need to deal with rudness?

            It's not like I haven't been in the same situations, but I am just not seeing how you are trying to get this kid to focus. It almost appears that you are very angry with this scout and trying to figure out how to punish him for what he did to the other scout. I would rather assemble a board of Eagles (both adults and youth) so he can listen face to face from his peers. And while I fully agree that this scout doesn't see himself in conflict with the Oath and Law, his Eagle peers certainly do. He is not getting the big picture that hopefully they can paint for him. The thing is that even though he may not see the light come on as far as his behavior, he will learn that others do and watching. They will hold him accountible everytime he steps out of line.

            Our scouts are told that they are held at a higher level (adult) as soon as they hit the rank of star or age 14, whichever comes first. This is a tough age, I seen 14 year old scouts like this make a complete change by age 16.
            Last edited by Eagledad; 03-24-2014, 02:15 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by JoeBob View Post

              Qwaze has a handle on it. The boy is so self centered that he is unaware of and uncaring of how his actions affect others. Incapable of seeing that he may be in error.
              There's two words there that have to be evaluated closely ... unaware = oblivious ... he has no clue what he is doing is affecting others? I kinda doubt that. I'll put a big vote in for uncaring.

              My two sons are opposites...my oldest is fully aware ... so much so that because of his ADHD, he chooses not to interact with very many people because he does not want to insult anyone, especially the opposite sex. My younger son (the Scout) is truly oblivious about what he says or how he says it 99% of the time. We have to put the brakes on him quite frequently.

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              • #22
                Regardless, the strategy is the same:
                • Unaware? Inform the boy that his actions are damaging the morale of the people he cares about, and his behavior must change to reflect care and compassion. Otherwise, he won't be welcome here.
                • Uncaring? Inform the boy that the pathway to becoming a responsible, participating citizen starts with attending to the well-being of his peers, and his behavior must change to reflect care and compassion. Otherwise, he won't be welcome here.
                Who actually does the informing depends on the cohesiveness and maturity of the boys in your troop, supportive parents and other leaders, and what other inputs the boy is choosing to heed. Joe Bob, it sounds like you're stepping out on faith that the PLC is up to it. Not a bad choice, given that it seems like the other boys have brought this up to you. I look forward to hearing how it works.
                The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them...
                Last edited by qwazse; 03-25-2014, 12:18 PM.

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                • #23
                  Update:
                  PLC did just fine.
                  2 youngest members were opposed to any punishment, because "Eagle Scout really holds a grudge."

                  He's not owning it, yet. "You're doing this to me just because I'm an Eagle, right?"


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                  • #24
                    Contrition is a learned behavior. A snarky reply wouldn't help him, but if it would make you feel better, you could tell him, "Well, you are a marked man. Can't say we didn't warn you."

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by JoeBob View Post
                      Update:
                      PLC did just fine.
                      2 youngest members were opposed to any punishment, because "Eagle Scout really holds a grudge."

                      He's not owning it, yet. "You're doing this to me just because I'm an Eagle, right?"

                      Well you guys have a better feel for this than I. Joe, nothing about your post makes me comfortable. The PLC did fine, but the two youngest scouts are too afraid to Punish the Scout? Punish? Is that what you are trying to get? And Afraid? How was this all fine? What punishment do you think this scout deserves?

                      It's time to call in mom and dad and have discussion without the PLC. The adults need to do something with this Eagle so that young scouts aren't "afraid" of making decisions and his parents need to be an active part of the situation. I’m not sure how I see a punishment situation here, but certainly there needs to be an alignment of expectations and attitudes.

                      I admit, not observing all this puts us at big disadvantage, but troop adults need to maintain a balance of maturity with the general maturity of the scouts so that they are not forced into making decisions from the emotion of fear or intimidation.

                      I am all for scouts taking responsibility of holding other scouts accountable, but there is big gray area between accountability and punishment. That scouts are afraid tells me that your program is not yet at a maturity where scouts can be making these kinds of decisions.

                      As I said I am not there, but from what you have posted, it looks like you might be a little too aggressive with the boy run.
                      Barry

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                      • #26
                        Yes.
                        Yes.
                        Yes.
                        Yes.
                        Not gonna put that much detail online.
                        What the PLC decided works for me.
                        They are aware.
                        Big kids intimidate smaller kids. In the real world, you and I are not going to change that.

                        I see no 'big gray area between accountability and punishment'. If it makes you feel more comfortable, call it 'consequences'; I'm not that politically correct.

                        **********

                        To all that made suggestions: THANK YOU. Whether I agreed with or used your ideas, they all made me think and gave me avenues to explore.

                        JoeBob

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                        • #27
                          Thanks JoeBob, for sharing this with us. I think it made us think about the situation, especially if we haven't encountered it before. Let us know how this turns out over time.

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                          • #28
                            With full respect of what you are giving to the scouting program Joe, I am not trying to protect my pride here. I am only responding from my experience. Most folks on this forum know that I am the least politically correct person you will ever meet. But whatever you want to call it, boys have to grow and mature into the different levels of their decision making process. I let discovery go pretty far, but I drew the line when scout reacted out of fear.

                            I once read from an old 1940s scout leaders’ guide that for a scout to learn a thing, he must repeat that thing. Well it goes both ways, if scouts repeatedly react from the emotion of fear, they will struggle to develop the habit of making decisions based from principled values. Scouting is a safe place. Growth from fear was not intended as part of the troop model.

                            Barry

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                            • #29
                              "Leadership" by fear or intimidation is not leadership at all. It is bullying and manipulation, pure and simple. People who "follow" tyrants are not following leaders, they should follow because they see it as being a good thing and they want to. Real leadership needs to be measured by the numbers of those following because they want to, not because they have to.

                              Stosh

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                              • #30
                                I see things a little differently. The advantage of having the PLC think about it is to get that sense of intimidation out in the open. Unlike sports, where an active coach can see which boys are being intimidated, an SM might only grasp the tip of the iceberg. Addressing a kid like Bad Eagle on your own might correct behavior X, but only because the lad thinks he can still keep behavior Y and attitude Z up his sleeve. In fact, this may be precisely why Bad Eagle became so full of guile. He figured that there was a way he could comport himself that nobody would call him on -- if they knew what's good for him. (Have I mentioned that I really hate the Jr. High years?) Now that the boys know they can call him, or anyone else, on X, Y, and Z, the odds are in favor of reform.

                                The best scorpion is not the one left un-swept in the corner, it's is the one crawling across the kitchen floor. It'll meet the end of the broomstick before doing any harm. All we're doing is helping our boys sweep a little better ...

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