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  • #46
    So here is the response from national...Bill Evans was the fellows name.....A very prompt response, more than a little surprised and pleased.

    "Bob, some awards intentionally do say under the auspices of the BSA while some do not. Hiking, Aquatics, and Riding say under the auspices. For those, that under the auspices also applies to the devices. "

    Comment


    • #47
      If even half of the effort to get around requirments and rules was redirected back into the program, it wouldn't be necessary to get around the requirements and rules.

      Comment


      • #48
        Common sense tells you that it is all under the auspices of BSA. It is a scouting award after all. Under the auspices includes troop run activities, patrol activities, OA activities, Jamborees, High adventure etc.... it does not include going camping with the family. As SM I know who attends what outings. I know who is doing what activities at said outings. For activities I did not attend (Ex Jambo) I have the scout log what they did. I keep it all in a spreadsheet (TM is not very useful for tracking riding and aquatics time.) I also know what Mbs and awards (such as mile swim) they have earned. I also do the surprise, guess what you have earned method. Though I do let the scouts know these awards are available.

        If a scout is working on a MB one can argue that it is under the auspices of BSA since a scout is expected to observe BSA policy (like safe swim, buddy system, trip plans etc as these are part of the MBs.)

        So common sense or go all lawyerly .... isn't the intent of this badge to get scouts off the couch and outdoors doing things?


        Chris

        Comment


        • #49
          Well there are three members of this forum that don't see it that way....

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
            So here is the response from national...Bill Evans was the fellows name.....A very prompt response, more than a little surprised and pleased.

            "Bob, some awards intentionally do say under the auspices of the BSA while some do not. Hiking, Aquatics, and Riding say under the auspices. For those, that under the auspices also applies to the devices. "
            HAHAHAHA!!!! I emailed the Advancement Team, too, and they forwarded it to Evans (they said NOA wasn't Adv Team's deal) and he told me the same thing, but I didn't figure there was any way to post his reply without being accused of putting words in his mouth.

            I asked two questions, unfortunately he only answered the second question:
            "1. What exactly does "under the auspices of the BSA" mean?
            Some people are arguing that it means anything a scout does in the 5 areas, say, if he bikes 5 miles to school, then there's 5 miles toward riding. Some are arguing that it means anything he does in the 5 areas as long as he is consciously doing it to earn the award, say, he bikes 5 miles because he wants 5 miles toward the award, then his intent alone makes it "under the auspices." Others argue that it means only activity in the 5 areas done within the patrol, troop, district, council, OA, or national program.
            Some have pointed to your answer in this Scouting Magazine blog and say that "under the auspices" and "at designated scouting activities" are one-in-the-same and interchangeable across badges/awards, but others say that answer only applies to the Camping MB.

            2. While the camping, hiking, riding, and aquatics badges all contain the caveat "under the auspices" their gold and silver devices do not, they simply say a gold/silver device "may be earned for each additional X nights/miles/hours of camping/riding/aquatics."
            This begs the question as to whether these additional nights/miles/hours must also be within Scouting activities, or from any individual pursuit. The proponents of the second position that metrics for devices may be outside of Scouting say that it is so because that is just how it is written, and we may not add to the requirement."

            His answer:
            "[Scouter99], for those awards that say under the auspices, that also applies to their devices."

            Also surprised at the quick reply given it's national and I don't suppose they have time to answer every silly email that comes through, especially during Jambo week.
            Last edited by Scouter99; 07-16-2013, 05:36 PM.

            Comment


            • #51
              read his reply to me....It answers the question....

              The rules apply to the devices as well.
              Last edited by Basementdweller; 07-16-2013, 05:50 PM.

              Comment


              • Basementdweller
                Basementdweller commented
                Editing a comment
                Old KDD will just ignore what was the email from national said,

              • King Ding Dong
                King Ding Dong commented
                Editing a comment
                I do not have the authority to ignore National. Thanks guys for helping clear this part of this up. Under the auspices at this point seems to be at the SM discretion, until we can find further clarification.

                Before you get your panties in a bunch BD, I am not SM, do not feel ready for SM and have to many other things to deal at the moment to entertain that.

                You all may feel it is a silly question, but as evidenced by the replies to this thread, many people are confused by the wording and intent from national. Especially those that are new.
                Last edited by King Ding Dong; 07-17-2013, 08:58 AM.

              • King Ding Dong
                King Ding Dong commented
                Editing a comment
                I not spoken to the SM about this particular award, but have asked him what he defines a Patrol Activity as. He says it is two or more scouts getting together for the purposes of scouting. Is he correct? I don't know. Is there more to it ? Does not seem like a silly question to me.

                Can two Scouts get together and take a bike ride on a trail for 15 miles and count those miles ? Does the entire patrol need to attend ? One patrol member doesn't even know how to ride a bike (I know amazing). At least two if not three cannot pass the swim test.

                A separate issue I am not entirely clear on is what kind of adult leadership is required. I see conflicting opinions. Two deep for day activities ( my CC thinks so) ? One, None ? I know I have read a patrol can take a hike without adults tagging along. What about bikes ? What about lap swimming at a pool with lifeguards ?

                Are patrol activities limited to the lowest common denominator skill set of the patrol ?

            • #52
              I don't agree that a Patrol activity is a boy and his pal. If that were the case my troop has patrol activities 7 days a week both patrols. Even if it were 3 boys......

              Rare is the event where the entire patrol attends. In my book to be a Patrol event it needs to be about half in attendance. So average patrol of 8....that means about 4 guys. So what ever the patrol size is half the members need to be there........

              So your aquatics dilemma.....Find a pool that gives swimming lessons....Take the patrol for for swimming lessons..... Boys that can't ride a bike, suggest a patrol bike rodeo....You have an the scouting umbrella activity.


              So Patrol hike.............Two deep leadership????? So you load the boys up in the family truckester and head to the trail head.....No one on one.......Boys jump out of the truckster begin hiking.....Good ASM sits down in his camp chair with his cup of coffee and a book or smart phone and netflix app........In a couple of hours the scouts return........

              Comment


              • King Ding Dong
                King Ding Dong commented
                Editing a comment
                So what does the BSA say a patrol activity is ?

                What the bleep is a bike rodeo ? Rodeo is a bad word in my book. Like NASCAR, Monster Truck and Honey Boo Boo.

                So if less than 50% of a patrol show up nothing counts ?

              • Basementdweller
                Basementdweller commented
                Editing a comment
                Your splitting hairs again.....

                The BSA has no numbers that say you have to have x number or percent of a patrol for an activity......But it does say 'Patrol size depends upon a troop's enrollment and the needs of its members, though an ideal patrol size is eight Scouts. Patrols with fewer than eight Scouts should try to recruit new members to get their patrol size up to the ideal number'"

                Activity is approved by the SM and does not interfere with the troop schedule.



                Two boys does not make an outing......if you can't get more invite the other patrol too.......or invite the troop to the swimming lessons. You can do an adhoc patrol, when both patrols have poor attendance. But then your back to troop method.

                I again point to my sons patrol who are all very close friends and they are together most days during the summer.....Honestly with son at the jambo I miss the energy in the house of the boys coming and going.....So at what point do I begin and end counting scout events.......

                An average summer day....they meet at someones house and ride their bikes to the pool which is roughly 3 miles from our community......they swim 4 hours and return.......From where you are going I could count that as a patrol bike ride and count the hours for the aquatics segment.....I know my son and his best friend do this most days and generally half or more of the patrol show up eventually. plus their SM approves of it because it is better for them instead of sitting in front of the game console.....

                Are you sure you were involved in cubs......I am pretty sure either the wolf or bear year you ride bikes and it mentions bike rodeos........safety inspections of the bike followed by a Ride thru a course of cones for time or precision, we did a closest stop to the cone without knocking the egg off......they all failed of course.......we did shortest stop, also....we taught more than a couple to ride during the events.

                Lawyer away......

              • King Ding Dong
                King Ding Dong commented
                Editing a comment
                You keep throwing up straw men. Kids riding a bike to a pool and goofing off for a few hours.

                I am talking about serious activities. Swimming laps, or a distance ride on a trail.

                You live in a different world than I do. We are to geographically dispersed and 10 year olds do not ride bikes unsupervised on roads. In fact we don't ride bikes on roads period at this age. The drivers around here do not respect cyclists. That may make it impossible to get the cycling merit badge for some time.

            • #53
              A separate issue I am not entirely clear on is what kind of adult leadership is required. I see conflicting opinions. Two deep for day activities ( my CC thinks so) ? One, None ?
              So read the Guide to Safe Scouting:
              Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities— even those including parent and child—require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

              http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...S/gss01.aspx#e

              Comment


              • #54
                Basement & KDD, you are both bringing up some interesting and I think valid points......

                I have to say Basement, your interpretation is starting to read, to me anyway, as a bit socialistic.... like the book The Rainbow Fish. It's not "fair" for one or two or three boys to get off their backside and earn something...... they have to include everyone. May not be your intention, but that's how it reads.

                I might suggest that both of you might benefit by taking 3 or 4 huge steps back away from the issue and ask, "what's the point here..... for the boys"?

                Basement I think is suggesting something good and noble.... some great lessons - inclusion, leadership, organization....
                KDD is in my opinion also suggesting something very valuable and good too - leadership by example, independence, self reliance, not letting others slow you down or keep you back......
                and both are encouraging goal setting, accomplishment, etc....

                Just looking at this as a Cub leader, not knee deep in troop goings on...... & applying some common sense.
                I think that auspices intends to mean what it means. Seems like a good approach would be for a boy to invite the patrol, troop, or whatever..... organize, etc..... If there's not enough interest, nobody shows up, whatever, go it alone. Don't hold the guy back?

                Oh, and while you are stepping back and asking yourself questions, ask how would your position affect a Lone Scout?

                Comment


                • #55
                  Good and noble????? I am not trying to be good and noble....I am trying to run a program.....I could give a rats behind if they earn it or not. If they earn it, it will because they plan a program that meets the requirements.....Not because dad arranged for son and his best friend to go for long bike rides or hikes or swimming to simply meet the minimum for the award.

                  Straw man, pssssst, how is my example different than KDD arranging for his son and best friend to do stuff on their own with out their patrol and counting it as a Patrol activity.


                  Ya what about the boys.....

                  So old KDD's son and his best friend are going off and their own to earn the award......Sure that's great......But the troop program still sucks. So who is benefiting?????? old KDD gets to puff his chest out and say my son earned the award.....The boy gets to say he earned it......But at what expense???? I bet the troop program suffers.

                  So the old lone scout????? My experience is that most lone scouts are home schooled and their parents view the rest of us at best bad influences or worst as inferior human beings. So camping requirements????? family camping??? I have never seen a lone scout at Summer camp, camporee or a council event. So who knows???????? Maybe that is the answer for KDD.....then he and his scout can count every bike ride for a slurpie and every minute in the bath tub. I am out of patience or understanding with or for him.


                  ....Son is at Jambo...He white water rafted during the event for 4 hours of time on the water, he swam today for another 4 hours, 8 hours of community service for the day of service......8 mile hike to the garden and 9 days of camping.....I think he had 4 hours of mountain biking too and mountain boarding..... All under the Auspices. No splitting hairs inviting best friends or in anyway trying to make myself thing I am doing the right thing, or fuzzy interpretations of the written word.

                  See KDD it isn't all that hard

                  Comment


                  • King Ding Dong
                    King Ding Dong commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Why didn't I think of that ? Send my kid to Jambo. Easy. Let me do the math on how many times I can do that before he ages out.

                    As IH I can put whatever I want on the calendar. I can make opportunities available to the whole troop. When have i ever suggested closed, exclusive opportunities ? I can't make people participate. They want to do other activities like sports and video games. I can't fix that. As Scouter99 points out "People will do what they want to do"

                    Why should couch potatoes and sports junkies hold a Scout back from achieving his goals ?

                    Still going for the straw men, eh ? Slurpie and bathtub.
                    Last edited by King Ding Dong; 07-20-2013, 10:12 AM.

                  • Basementdweller
                    Basementdweller commented
                    Editing a comment
                    he wasn't old enough anyhow....It was thirteen by the end of 2013 and first class.

                    As IH you shouldn't monkey with the program calendar on any level.....That is the Job of the den leaders, Cub Program chair and PLC or SM.

                • #56
                  Dude, I was suggesting a step back for a friendly moment of consideration...... I think you took a step forward!
                  I just hope you didn't break your keyboard on that one. You bring a lot of good to the discussions, and we don't want you down due to technical difficulties

                  Comment


                  • #57
                    Yes, I'm a little late to this party, but I do have a bit I would like to add to this discussion.

                    Frankly, I get somewhat disgusted with some of the attitude that I find on these forums and this thread is no exception. It really appears as though a few people have latched onto and twisted a concept to make it something that it is not. The addition of quotes from Bill Evans doesn’t really answer the question either as it is evident that this is a poorly constructed award in the first place and even if Bill thought through it clearly he would probably not want to appear to contradict the documentation. And whoever feels important enough to be able to get Bill to answer his questions, maybe next time you should ask real questions that will get to the bottom of the issue.

                    Consider this example:

                    It is clear that the NOA Hiking requirements include miles hiked when earning the Hiking merit badge. Does the Hiking merit badge require scouts to work on the badge as a patrol or a troop? Nope. Do the NOA Hiking requirements specifically provide a disqualification on those miles from the Hiking merit badge that would make them ineligible for NOA purposes? Nope. There is the “auspices” thing, but does a scout who hikes the required hikes to earn the Hiking merit badge not do so with a scouting purpose? Or does Basementdweller really want to argue that the inclusion of the “auspices” wording negate the inclusion of the Hiking merit badge miles if done alone? It is only reasonable that if the writers of this award wanted to disqualify Hiking merit badge miles done individually and not as part of a patrol/troop activity that they would have stated that clearly.

                    Then consider this example:

                    For several awards in Boy Scouts and Venturing a scout needs to establish and follow through on a fitness plan. Let’s say a scout determines that as part of his fitness plan that he will mountain bike 10 miles each Saturday morning. This is definitely a scouting activity, and it makes perfect sense that this is done as an individual activity rather than as a patrol or troop activity. If given the opportunity, would Bill Evans state that this would not be considered under the auspices of scouting? In his questioning to Bill, Scouter99 referenced non patrol/troop activities as “individual pursuit” suggesting that they have no connection to scouting. Scouter99 also stated that Bill’s answer came back very quickly during Jamboree week—is it reasonable that Bill actually took the time to consider anything other than Scouter99’s slanted question when he responded with his fourteen word response?

                    And sure, there are select individuals who will say that boys will manipulate the requirements to include something as simple as ride their bikes to get ice cream. Their response is to then add to the requirements to require a percentage of a scout’s patrol to participate before the scout can count the activity. Is this about a scout getting into the outdoors or about a scout maintaining a high level of activity by scouts in the troop? There are other awards for that—let this award be about getting into the outdoors.

                    With this said, I’m a proponent of being consistent and reasonable for this award. Camping nights have always been based on patrol/troop activities and this should continue to apply. Hiking miles have never excluded individual hikes and this should continue to apply. Riding miles have also never excluded individual miles (Cycling merit badge states “BSA Buddy System” which is an obvious statement about scout safety and not about doing this as a patrol/troop). And none of the aquatics merit badges require patrol/troop participation. Adventure activities are pretty much described as patrol/troop activities which makes sense that these follow this guidance. It’s really not that difficult.

                    (By the way, I find it interesting that those types of folks who argue against groups working on merit badges together are trying to suggest just that.)

                    And finally how about this:

                    Would BSA really want to create an individual award but require them to be part of a highly active troop to be able to qualify for it? Nope. Obviously, some troops have things going on a bit better than others. But does a proactive scout in a less-than-ideal troop have to suffer if they have personal goals? And should that scout be criticized that doing so is what is causing the troop to be less-than-ideal? Nope. Certainly not by people who would have absolutely no idea about the difficulties in that troop. After all, we all know that running a good program is always a challenge even for well-seasoned troops.
                    Last edited by pohsuwed; 01-25-2014, 03:52 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #58
                      Originally posted by pohsuwed View Post
                      Yes, I'm a little late to this party, but I do have a bit I would like to add to this discussion.
                      Frankly, I get somewhat disgusted with some of the attitude that I find on these forums and this thread is no exception. It really appears as though a few people have latched onto and twisted a concept to make it something that it is not. The addition of quotes from Bill Evans doesn’t really answer the question either as it is evident that this is a poorly constructed award in the first place and even if Bill thought through it clearly he would probably not want to appear to contradict the documentation. And whoever feels important enough to be able to get Bill to answer his questions, maybe next time you should ask real questions that will get to the bottom of the issue.
                      Hoho, we got a live one. I did not anywhere imply that I was important because Mr Evans answered me, in fact what I said was that I was surprised he replied because I'm not important. Mr Evans has retired since July, his replacement replies to emails just as quickly.

                      Originally posted by pohsuwed View Post
                      Consider this example:
                      It is clear that the NOA Hiking requirements include miles hiked when earning the Hiking merit badge. Does the Hiking merit badge require scouts to work on the badge as a patrol or a troop? Nope. Do the NOA Hiking requirements specifically provide a disqualification on those miles from the Hiking merit badge that would make them ineligible for NOA purposes? Nope. There is the “auspices” thing, but does a scout who hikes the required hikes to earn the Hiking merit badge not do so with a scouting purpose? Or does Basementdweller really want to argue that the inclusion of the “auspices” wording negate the inclusion of the Hiking merit badge miles if done alone? It is only reasonable that if the writers of this award wanted to disqualify Hiking merit badge miles done individually and not as part of a patrol/troop activity that they would have stated that clearly.
                      Hiking done toward the Hiking (and Backpacking) is done within Scouting, it is "under the auspices." I don't recall if BD thinks not, I certainly never said it isn't.

                      Right from this start, you seem to be confusing "alone" and my phrase "individual pursuit." By individual pursuit, I mean something the Scout is doing for his own pleasure on his own time. A Scout might be hiking by himself to earn Hiking MB, but hiking for Hiking MB is not a personal hobby.

                      Originally posted by pohsuwed View Post
                      Then consider this example:
                      For several awards in Boy Scouts and Venturing a scout needs to establish and follow through on a fitness plan. Let’s say a scout determines that as part of his fitness plan that he will mountain bike 10 miles each Saturday morning. This is definitely a scouting activity, and it makes perfect sense that this is done as an individual activity rather than as a patrol or troop activity. If given the opportunity, would Bill Evans state that this would not be considered under the auspices of scouting? In his questioning to Bill, Scouter99 referenced non patrol/troop activities as “individual pursuit” suggesting that they have no connection to scouting.
                      This scenario is the same as the hiking scenario, and the same logic applies. If the Scout biked for Personal Fitness MB, then he's got biking miles. You're arguing against something I never said.

                      Originally posted by pohsuwed View Post
                      Scouter99 also stated that Bill’s answer came back very quickly during Jamboree week—is it reasonable that Bill actually took the time to consider anything other than Scouter99’s slanted question when he responded with his fourteen word response?
                      I think you'll agree he is able to answer these questions quickly because he knows his stuff. Or let's take off our disgusted hats, and put on our thinking caps, and conclude that he was able to answer my email quickly because he had just answered the same question for BD.

                      Originally posted by pohsuwed View Post
                      Is this about a scout getting into the outdoors or about a scout maintaining a high level of activity by scouts in the troop? There are other awards for that—let this award be about getting into the outdoors.
                      You're wrong, and the correct answer to your questio nis right one the award's webpage:
                      Now when a Scout excels in outdoor participation, there are new awards to show for it! This program, conceived by the National Camping Task Force of the BSA®, includes a series of five badges designed to recognize a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout who has exemplary knowledge and experience in performing high-level outdoor activities.
                      http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...wards/noa.aspx

                      The award is designed to recognize Scouts who are highly active in Scouting.

                      Originally posted by pohsuwed View Post
                      And finally how about this:
                      Would BSA really want to create an individual award but require them to be part of a highly active troop to be able to qualify for it? Nope. Obviously, some troops have things going on a bit better than others. But does a proactive scout in a less-than-ideal troop have to suffer if they have personal goals? And should that scout be criticized that doing so is what is causing the troop to be less-than-ideal? Nope. Certainly not by people who would have absolutely no idea about the difficulties in that troop. After all, we all know that running a good program is always a challenge even for well-seasoned troops.
                      A boy, like King Ding Dong's son, who is "proactive in a less-than-ideal troop" should find a troop that meets his needs, not sit around in a crummy troop. The solution is not to bend the rules for him. They all get the same 7 years. Patrol, troop, district, council, OA, and national programming offers more than enough opportuinites for any proactive boy with a less active troop without manipulating the award.
                      Last edited by Scouter99; 02-02-2014, 11:28 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #59
                        Nice reply 99

                        Another dad searching for awards for son.....Nice.

                        Under the auspices.......Patrol outings and Merit badges both require SM's Approval....... So hiking and biking for the merit badge is under the auspices. So if the Cycling MBC is ok with counting the short trips to the corner kwikie mart for slushies toward the merit badge then I am good with it too, I have no other choice, other than report that MBC to the district on the complaint form.

                        Scouter 99, I told KDD earlier to fix his troop.....Not abandon it....Or have his son invite his patrol on the ride.

                        Comment


                        • Scouter99
                          Scouter99 commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I agree with that advice (to KDD) but some troops like to stink.

                        • Basementdweller
                          Basementdweller commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Naw it is disinterested, lazy parents and leaders. Honestly I would like to have the summer off, but a successful troop needs to meet and continue the program.
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