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  • #16
    We need to avoid overthinking this. Next thing you know we put it in the “too hard to do” category and scouts wont attempt to accomplish this award.
    Open up the dictionary and read the definition of “auspice”. Then go on line and look at several definitions from other sources. It all boils down to doing something with the support and guidance of the sponsoring organization.
    Yes, this is an individual award. Those who think differently need to look at the requirements, and look at them again. You can see earning specific merit badges is part of the requirements and nowhere in any of the scouting literature states that a scout must have two deep leadership and tour permits to earn merit badges.
    Quit making this hard.

    Comment


    • #17
      While it is an individual award......I cannot be earned by individual effort.......You gotta do it with a group of scouts, which is a group afterall.

      Old KDD can't take scout son out every saturday morning for a bike ride till he makes the miles for the riding portion of the badge. Now he could take scout son's patrol out every saturday morning for a bike ride.


      There is a difference.

      Comment


      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        So can a Dad and Son ride Bikes to the donut shop and back every saturday morning and count the milage......NO

        Can Son and patrol ride to the donut shop and back every saturday morning and count the milage.....Yes

        I am not adding requirements...It is an individual but must be earned as part of the group , be it patrol, troop, district or council.


        I am not the one confused, nor am I adding requirements.

        My point is overzealous dad cannot significantly impact whether his individual scout can earn it or not.

      • charmoc
        charmoc commented
        Editing a comment
        Basementdweller: Really? Where in any of the boy scout literature all requirements have to be earned as part of a group?

        If you cannot back this up, then you are adding to the requirements.

        From the BSA’s Advancement Guide paragraph 2.0.0.3 Personal Growth Is Prime Consideration “Though much is done individually at their own pace”

        So if a scout for the purpose of working on a requirement takes a bike ride to the doughnut shop with dad, does it count? YES!

      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        Not according to the links below.

        A scout and dad cannot go to the riding stable and go for a ride and count it....Nor can they ride to the cornor store or go family camping, canoeing or hiking and count it.

        The sole exception to that is working on a merit badge but even most of those are done as a scouting group........

        I am not putting up roadblocks nor am I trying to short cut the program.

        Complete the requirement as written....Under the auspice as discussed below.
        Last edited by Basementdweller; 07-05-2013, 01:35 PM.

    • #18
      KDD. Suggest you get yourself a copy of the advancement guide and read it from cover to cover. There are a lot of opinions on this forum. Often these oppinions blead over to pratices in a scout troop and the past 100 years of BSA experience in putting on a program for the development of scouts go’s out the window.

      I’m no expert, so I read the Boy Scout literature and BSA is pretty clear about how things should get done. So no real need to interpret any “legealesee”.

      You did the right thing and looked up the definition of auspice, and as you can tell it does not mean that all requirements must be done as part of a pre-planned scout activity put on by some adult or as part of a group.

      Very few scout troops would be able to have a program that is robust enough for a scout to earn the National Outdoor Medal, and BSA knows that. So individual effort is not only expected, but encouraged. Isn’t that what we are trying to do in developing these boys to become men?

      Continue to encourage and coach your son to earn this award, it’s a great long range goal!

      Comment


      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        I wish you would research before posting because your simply wrong......

        Here is a link to ask the expert at Bryan on scouting discussion what "Under the Auspice means.....

        http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/201...omment-page-1/

        Next it says, “at designated Scouting activities or events.” This means the experiences are held under the auspices of some level of the BSA, and that “Scouting” happens on them. For example, an individual family or a couple of Scouts and their parents heading off into the woods doesn’t count.

        So family camping trips, hiking sailing canoeing or summers spent at the pool don't count.

      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        here is another discussion of under the auspices.

        http://netcommissioner.com/askandy/2...-july-14-2010/


        So, what does this tell us…? First, it tells us that family camping doesn’t count because it’s not “under the auspices of the BSA.” But it also tells us that any camping “under the auspices of the BSA” absolutely does count, whether with one’s own troop, with another troop, at one’s council summer camp or another council’s summer camp, a Camporee or Jamboree, or a special event held by a district or council (e.g., overnight Klondike Derby, etc.).

        So, if everyone just reads and then sticks with the exact language of any requirement and doesn’t attempt to put any sort of special spin or further qualification on it, and doesn’t try to operate from a decades-old memory, all’s well that ends well.

    • #19
      "under the auspicies of the BSA"does not = everything you do as a scout is a scout activity. This award is designed not as a 1 and done or with built in shortcuts, or even that it were to be EASY and everyone in the troop can earn it without trying. I see it as something your long term scouts can earn, when they've already gotten all their mbs and ranks so they focus on taking it up a notch to finish up one of the rocker thingies or the pins. not something your 11 year old scout will get in a year or even two.

      If you were to add up the miles for trail to 1st class hike, hiking mb, backpacking mb, plus hikes done usually thru the year and at summer camp you should come close to enough miles for the award if you are an avid hiker and participated in these events.

      If you were to add up the miles for getting hiking mb and bike mb, plus your troop goes on maybe a horseback ride or biking activities every year and you were interested enough to participate in these events, then you could get the award.

      If you were to add up the hours in the water for trail to 1st class swimming, swimming mb, lifesaving mb, canoeing, kayaking, motorboating, sailing mb--to show that you were an avid what would that be? it's not just avid boater, but that's a huge part of the hours, then you could get that award.

      If you have to count everything you do in life since you are a scout so it must count-in order to come up with the miles/hours you need for this award, then the award doesn't mean anything.

      Comment


      • #20
        Ya know that is a good point.....My son and the bulk of his patrol hang out most summer days at our local public pool.....So does that make it a scouting event?????? of course not.....Could it be sure......I know my son has enough hours at that pool to ever probably 10 or more gold devices in aquatics, 4 years x 12 weeks x 5 days x 6 hours......ya pretty easily.....

        But it isn't under the auspices.......so it doesn't count.

        Comment


        • #21
          You guys seem to miss the point. First of all, nothing in the requirement states “at a scouting event.” Might try reading the requirement first, then re-read them again.
          Secondly, you obviously do not understand the definition of “auspice”. Try looking it up before stating that it means “a scouting event.”
          Lastly, if your son want to apply all the hours he has spent at the pool with his scouting buddies, Yes, it counts, but only for the aquatics portion of the badge.
          Quit adding to the requirements!

          Comment


          • Basementdweller
            Basementdweller commented
            Editing a comment
            It does not count.....

            Read the links.....I posted above. especially 18.1


            Him hanging at the pool checkin out the ladies is not even remotely under the auspices of scouting, even if it is with some of his buddies from his patrol....
            Last edited by Basementdweller; 07-05-2013, 02:28 PM.

          • charmoc
            charmoc commented
            Editing a comment
            Shure it does! If his time at the pool was done for the purpose of working on this requirement then it counts. Checking out the ladies is just a bonus!

        • #22
          this has taken a turn to parallel something I run into with the cubs.
          Sometimes there will be a requirement to say, visit a library.... either as part of an elective or part of an achievement.

          Well I'm pretty sure that every boy in the pack has at least a few times been in their school library. Most if not all have visited their local public library too, more times than they can count.
          So does that mean that every boy then, will automatically get signed off for that requirement?
          .... or must it be an organized thing that is preplanned by the den leader?

          The answer isn't really clear.

          For me and my son, I have marched under the assumption that it
          a) must have happened during this current scout year
          b) if it wasn't something that was formally done as a meeting, then I will be sure to look at the book with my son together, talk about the requirement and what he did, how it meets the requirement (or not), etc....
          then I'll sign him off.

          I'm quite sure many parents have signed off even if he had visited it last year...... without so much as a review or discussion with the boy....

          I can only imagine that a similar approach would be appropriate here.
          Common sense must be engaged......

          Comment


          • charmoc
            charmoc commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes, thats the sprit!

        • #23
          I know of at least one scouters son who will receive the award unearned.

          Comment


          • Scouter99
            Scouter99 commented
            Editing a comment
            Roger that.

          • charmoc
            charmoc commented
            Editing a comment
            Well still proves my point. 1) I don’t track my son’s requirement, he does that, and after all he is a scout. 2) You still have not substantiated your argument using any established BSA literature which shows the weakness in your arguments 3) you (and scouter99) have to result in low blows.

          • Basementdweller
            Basementdweller commented
            Editing a comment
            If my son chooses to earn it......

            He will have done do in a scouting manner and not short cutting the intent.....and counting absolutely every breath he takes toward the award.

            The best part....he will never have intended to earn it....He will have earned it thru the course of an active scouting career.....Not thru book keeping tricks.

        • #24
          Originally posted by 5yearscouter View Post
          "under the auspicies of the BSA"does not = everything you do as a scout is a scout activity. This award is designed not as a 1 and done or with built in shortcuts, or even that it were to be EASY and everyone in the troop can earn it without trying. I see it as something your long term scouts can earn, when they've already gotten all their mbs and ranks so they focus on taking it up a notch to finish up one of the rocker thingies or the pins. not something your 11 year old scout will get in a year or even two.
          Actually, an active, involved scout in a decent troop can easily earn the Camping badge in less than 2 years of membership. Our troop camps 2 nights/month most months, an active boy could easily get his 24 nights in 18 months. The biggest speed bump anyone in our troop encounters is the requirement to earn First Class; we don't ramrod them through First Class, so most of them actually have over 30 nights before I introduce the award to them in their second year. I generally introduce it to the scout as soon as he has 24 nights, because at that point the award's requirements are a good roadmap to what MBs to earn (if he's interested in the different badges) just at the point he's going to start earning MBs.

          The award also has plenty of "built-in shortcuts"--http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Youth/Awards/NOA.aspx
          The adventure badge allows for 1 event to be counted multiple times "A single activity that satisfies multiple items in 3a-g may be counted as separate activities at the discretion of the unit leader. Similarly, a single activity that doubles an item in 3a-d may be counted as two activities at the discretion of the unit leader."

          So, take backpacking: "A backpacking trip lasting three or more days and covering more than 20 miles without food resupply"
          A single backpacking trip of 6 days covering 40 miles w/o resupply would count as 2 adventure credits.

          But, I would not call the various other means of multiple credit "shortcuts" they're the requirements as written and badge is still difficult to earn and prestigious.

          Still, the amount of allowances written into the awards make charmoc's "fudging" ludicrous.

          Originally posted by blw2 View Post
          this has taken a turn to parallel something I run into with the cubs.
          Sometimes there will be a requirement to say, visit a library.... either as part of an elective or part of an achievement.

          Well I'm pretty sure that every boy in the pack has at least a few times been in their school library. Most if not all have visited their local public library too, more times than they can count.
          So does that mean that every boy then, will automatically get signed off for that requirement?
          .... or must it be an organized thing that is preplanned by the den leader?

          The answer isn't really clear.

          For me and my son, I have marched under the assumption that it
          a) must have happened during this current scout year
          b) if it wasn't something that was formally done as a meeting, then I will be sure to look at the book with my son together, talk about the requirement and what he did, how it meets the requirement (or not), etc....
          then I'll sign him off.
          blw, your "example" is a non sequitur for this specific award, which clearly states in foolproof language that the activity must be done as part of the scouting program, "under the auspices of the BSA." Then again, as charmoc is demonstrating, nothing is foolproof to the sufficiently talented fool.

          Charmoc, you are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong. While spouting about "opinions on this forum" and citing the GtA, you continue to post your own incorrect, ignorant opinion which is in direct contradiction to the BSA Advancement Team's official answer to this question. You are a jester.

          Chris Hunt of the BSA Advancement Team has answered this question in the plainest language for Scouting Magazine: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/201...omment-page-1/
          "At a Scouting event" and "under the auspices of the BSA" mean the same thing.

          If you think that going to the swimming pool is "under the auspices of the BSA" then the next time your kid is there by himself, break his arm and file a BSA insurance request if you're so confident you're right.
          Last edited by Scouter99; 07-05-2013, 04:02 PM.

          Comment


          • charmoc
            charmoc commented
            Editing a comment
            Wow, when scouters fail to “get it” have to result in demeaning language and name calling is a pretty sad day for scouting.
            I feel sorry for those of you (and your scouts) who had to result to such tactics to make your point instead of citing the written documentation from BSA to substitute your arguments.
            Unfortunately I have met many of you through the years and have seen the damage you have done to many young men left in your care.
            But I see I got under your skin pretty well, which proves my point that if you have to defend your position with such a tirade, they you don’t get it and probably never will.

          • Scouter99
            Scouter99 commented
            Editing a comment
            Hiking MB has no language restricting miles hiked to Scouting activities. NOA and Camping MB do. There's no comparison between Hiking MB's requirements.
            5. Take five hikes, each on a different day, and each of 10 continuous miles. You may stop for as many short rest periods as needed, as well as one meal, during each hike, but not for an extended period (example: overnight). Prepare a hike plan for each hike.*
            6. Take a hike of 20 continuous miles in one day following a hike plan you have prepared. You may stop for as many short rest periods as needed, as well as one meal, but not for an extended period (example: overnight).

          • duckfoot
            duckfoot commented
            Editing a comment
            My point was that this article that is being thrown about only address specific language for camping not anything else. 'Under the auspices of the BSA' is a very broad statement that does nothing to suggest it is sponsored scouting events, only that the scout is involved in a activity for which he has a unit leader approval.

            Seems the MB does not restrict the miles but the NOA does and those miles includes the Hiking MB.

            Hiking. A Boy Scout or Varsity Scout may earn the National Outdoor Badge for Hiking upon successfully completing the following requirements:

            1.Earn the First Class rank.
            2.Earn the Hiking and Orienteering merit badges.
            3.Complete 100 miles of hiking or backpacking under the auspices of the Boy Scouts of America, including miles hiked as part of requirement 2.

        • #25
          Scouter99

          Oh I'm pretty sure any scout in our troop should have the camping rocker thingy, because we do camp 2 nights every month, plus a week long summer camp of 6 nites, so that's 28 nites a year (11x2+6) that is if they go on all the campouts, eh? I think comparatively, camping is the easiest one to get, almost too easy.....

          I don't think the allowances to count this or that are shortcuts, those are just the rules man!
          I agree that
          "Still, the amount of allowances written into the awards make ANY "fudging" ludicrous."


          Comment


          • Scouter99
            Scouter99 commented
            Editing a comment
            I don't mind Camping being less difficult because it whets the appetite and supports all the others. If they get out camping then they're going to earn hiking miles, aquatics hours, riding miles, etc. and that pentagonal patch looks lonely with just one badge on one side, so they're motivated to get going on the others.

        • #26
          If anyone Needs Miles For Cycling Wichita Falls Texas has Hotter-n-Hell 100 Bike Ride In August every year. We have several Scout Units participate each Year. Still time to register. Wichita Lodge 35 will be working Event again this year. I am sure if yall look around you can find a Bike Ride to participate in as a Scout Unit

          Comment


          • Basementdweller
            Basementdweller commented
            Editing a comment
            Sounds like under the Auspices to me.......

            Very scouting to send the invite.

          • jpstodwftexas
            jpstodwftexas commented
            Editing a comment
            Each Unit has Tour Permits. They Have two-deep leadership..They Follow BSA Rules..They also wear Shirts Clearly marked Indicating they are Representing BSA. we usually arrange for them To Stay free at our Camp if possible or at a Charter Organization

        • #27
          Originally posted by King Ding Dong View Post
          You questioned my word.
          You asked me why it appeared It would seem you really wanted to the Award instead of your son...YOUR INITIAL POST..the Use of the Word "I" Over and Over. It has been clarified in subsequent posts. Do we need to keep Harping over it?

          Comment


          • #28
            Originally posted by jpstodwftexas View Post
            If anyone Needs Miles For Cycling Wichita Falls Texas has Hotter-n-Hell 100 Bike Ride In August every year. We have several Scout Units participate each Year. Still time to register. Wichita Lodge 35 will be working Event again this year. I am sure if yall look around you can find a Bike Ride to participate in as a Scout Unit
            See that's an example of something that appears to be a community event, not a scout unit, district or council event--but it is supported and attended heavily by scout units. So we would talk it up in scout meetings, and get the SM on board to count it for the award. That would be something I'd think of as an exceptable under the auspices that isn't technically a scout event.

            Comment


            • #29
              charmoc commented
              Today, 03:02 PM
              Wow, when scouters fail to “get it” have to result in demeaning language and name calling is a pretty sad day for scouting.
              I feel sorry for those of you (and your scouts) who had to result to such tactics to make your point instead of citing the written documentation from BSA to substitute your arguments.
              Unfortunately I have met many of you through the years and have seen the damage you have done to many young men left in your care.
              But I see I got under your skin pretty well, which proves my point that if you have to defend your position with such a tirade, they you don’t get it and probably never will.
              Are you a Registered Merit Badge Counselor? Well I am.. We must Follow BSA Youth Protection. We can not do One on One Contact. Maybe your Coucil does not But mine does.
              In Regards to Tour Permits..An Example, So a Scout wants to earn swimming Merit Badge outside of Summer Camp on his own or a Troop does..They are going to the YMCA to Earn it.. Would they require a Tour Permit. YES... it is outside of Council-Owned Property..and It is not a Council or District Event
              Below is a Cut and Paste from Scouting.org...written documentation from BSA as you pointed out.
              Q. When do I need to complete a tour and activity plan?
              A. Times when a tour and activity plan must be submitted for council review include the following:
              • Trips of 500 miles or more; or
              • Trips outside of council borders (exception: not to your council-owned property); or
              • Trips to Florida Sea Base, Northern Tier, Philmont Scout Ranch, Summit Bechtel Reserve (you will be asked to present a copy of your tour and activity plan upon arrival),national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or a regionally sponsored event; or
              • When conducting any of the following activities outside of council or district events:
                • Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.)
                • Climbing and rappelling
                • Orientation flights (process flying plan)
                • Shooting sports
                • Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.); or
                • At a council's request (Contact your local council for additional guidelines or regulations concerning tour and activity plans; many have set guidelines for events or activities within council boundaries such as for Cub Scout overnight camping.)
                • One-on-one contact between adults and Scouts prohibited. One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted. In situations that require personal conferences, such as a Scoutmaster’s conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other adults and youths.
                • Two-deep leadership on all outings required. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older,
              • ​You also wrote "We need to avoid overthinking this. Next thing you know we put it in the “too hard to do” category and scouts wont attempt to accomplish this award.
                Open up the dictionary and read the definition of “auspice”. Then go on line and look at several definitions from other sources. It all boils down to doing something with the support and guidance of the sponsoring organization.
                Yes, this is an individual award. Those who think differently need to look at the requirements, and look at them again. You can see earning specific merit badges is part of the requirements and nowhere in any of the scouting literature states that a scout must have two deep leadership and tour permits to earn merit badges.
                Quit making this hard. are required for all trips and outings....

              Comment


              • #30
                Originally posted by 5yearscouter View Post

                See that's an example of something that appears to be a community event, not a scout unit, district or council event--but it is supported and attended heavily by scout units. So we would talk it up in scout meetings, and get the SM on board to count it for the award. That would be something I'd think of as an exceptable under the auspices that isn't technically a scout event.
                Everything does not have to be strictly a Scout Sponsored Event.
                However You Must apply BSA Rules
                They Obtain a Tour Permit prior to Coming
                They Observe BSA Guidelines

                Comment


                • 5yearscouter
                  5yearscouter commented
                  Editing a comment
                  yes I agree. the default is events at troop, district, council, OA etc
                  but occassionally a community or church event could become "under the auspices" with a little work by the unit/patrols.
                  But just for fun stuff doesn't count cause it's not auspicious enough.
                  auspices is a weird word, isn't it?

                • Scouter99
                  Scouter99 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I didn't think it was so weird until yesterday :P

                • Basementdweller
                  Basementdweller commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I agree...

                  Taking something so simple

                  Then Try to apply the Guide to Advancement too it.....

                  Just because a scout wants to earn the outdoor award does not automatically make absolutely every time he swims, boats bikes or camps apply...

                  He's got to do it with the scouts in some manner.
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