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  • #16
    I will say this about the national advancement folks, THEY DID A GREAT JOB WITH SECOND CLASS 3E AND F REQUIREMENTS! ( shouting for joy with this one.)

    See changes here!


    • #17
      Guy there apparently has been a lot of discussion (and still is) of combining Citizenship in the Community with Citizenship in the Nation. So far the decision has been to keep them separate. I know the boys would love to have them combined. And you are right that there is a lot of school work in those badges. The hardest part of any of the citizenship badges for our boys is where they have to visit someplace and talk about it. That seems to always be the final requirement completed. I have noticed over the years that whomever is writing the badges has included alternatives using the Internet, which the boys are much more into.

      Still being very active in the troop and on Eagle boards gives me a little insight as to which badges the boys feel are the most valuable.

      In Eagle boards the answer I get more than not is either one of the citizenship badges or Personal Management. Neither are Scoutcraft badges. When I ask Eagles who are in college what badge they think is the most valuable the overwhelming response has been Personal Management.

      (This message has been edited by bnelon44)


      • #18
        For the "homework" merit badges, something we should realize is that kids do a lot more homework in school these days. I think the biggest problem with the homework MBs is they are a departure from the highly effective spirt of Scouting that produces learning as a byproduct of Scouts doing things they are interested in doing. The most effective Citizenship MB is "Citizenship in the Patrol" where they learn all about leadership, followership, elections, due process, etc., all while they think they're just having fun with their friends.

        PS: wasn't the First Aid MB a requirement for First Class back in the late 70's/early 80's?


        • #19
          > PS: wasn't the First Aid MB a requirement for First Class back in the late 70's/early 80's?

          So was Citizenship in the Community.

          Good citizenship is an aim of Scouting


          • #20
            There is a lot of overlap between the First Aid Merit Badge and the BSA standards for Wilderness First Aid training. If a scout completes a Wilderness course and CPR/AED, he will have covered the merit badge.

            Eagle92 - The BSA partnership with the American Red Cross offers significant cost discounts for BSA members to complete Red Cross training. This includes instructor certification courses. You should be able to complete the lay course instructor requirements at ARC for very little $. Your council program and safety folks might not know the full details, and it might take some digging on your part, but someone at Red Cross could look it up in their systems.

            OK, found a link for you:
            (This message has been edited by rdclements)


            • #21
              Schools around here are state required to cover the content of Citizen in Community/Nation/World in far greater detail, as well as requiring community service hours for graduation. A big plus is that their field trips are during government operation hours; they can see the state house in session or a trial in progress! It is frequently asked question on this forum if scouts can count (double dip) their school community services hours for Star and Life service hours.

              There are other aspects of citizenship via the Patrol and Leadership Methods that we should concentrate on. I see no loss in the citizenship aim with a Scoutcraft Eagle.

              Downsize to just 1 Citizenship MB is overdue. We might be able to merge with Personal Management with a focus on employment, budgeting, paying taxes, voting, ...

              Another $0.02


              • #22

                Baden-Powell spoke of citizenship as the aim of Scouting to explain why his program was 100% Scoutcraft and had no, as in zero (0), required schoolwork badges.

                Simply put, since 1965, whenever any American mentions "aims," he is justifying why we turn Scouting into something that most boys hate, have always hated, and will continue to hate until the end of time.

                For Baden-Powell, there is no Scoutcraft without the continual test of adult-free Journeys, Expeditions, and Patrol Outings:

                (This message has been edited by Kudu)


                • #23
                  Just because an "aim" exists -- does it really mean there should be multiple Eagle-required merit badges to address the aim? We still have rank requirements too -- in fact, I've always been impressed by the "vertical integration" of the Scout advancement hierarchy. For example, you have a Tiger Cub learning how to put a Band-Aid on a cut, to a Second Class Scout learning about blister prevention and treatment, all the way up to First Aid MB (and WFA).

                  I like the idea of Citizenship in the Patrol (but not as yet another merit badge!). Like I said, I'd love to see a combination -- hey, why not change up the "merit badge" paradigm a little, and create a merit badge that might take multiple (and increasing) levels of maturity to (finally) achieve? Add to that the concept that we aren't necessarily talking just Community, Nation and World -- there are others:

                  Citizenship in the Patrol
                  Citizenship on the Trail (Leave No Trace)
                  Citizenship in the Family (isn't this what Family Life is all about?)

                  Yes, Citizenship is an Aim of Scouting. Like others have suggested, there are many ways to teach it, and to foster it. We already do that (across that full advancement spectrum too), don't we? Then why stick with a stale old paradigm?


                  • #24
                    There is no "Swimming/Lifesaving continuum," at least like there is a First Aid/E prep continuum.


                    • #25
                      "Yes -- I know -- it wouldn't fly. But I can still daydream, can't I? :-)"

                      Yes. In that spirit, yes. And in the same spirit... Eagle Scouts could design their own challenges to earn their own specializations like:

                      Civilized Man:
                      Citizenship in the Community
                      Citizenship in the Nation
                      Citizenship in the World
                      Environmental Science
                      Family Life
                      Personal Management
                      Public Speaking

                      Outdoor Man:
                      Shotgun Shooting or archery
                      Rifle Shooting
                      Wilderness Survival
                      Climbing or Horsemanship

                      Aquatic Man:
                      Small Boat Sailing
                      SCUBA Diving

                      Emergency Man:
                      Traffic Safety
                      First Aid
                      Emergency Preparedness
                      Fire Safety
                      Public Health
                      Crime Prevention

                      Artisan Man:

                      Or... keeping with the sets of nine theme:
                      All Merit Badges that with an "r" sound - Man:
                      American Labor
                      Pulp and Paper
                      Indian Lore
                      Dog Care

                      (This message has been edited by Callooh! Callay!)


                      • #26
                        Jay K -- please explain. At one time, I recall that Swimming MB was required for Lifesaving MB, and although that isn't the case now, there is a certain amount of swimming proficiency required (requirement 1) before continuing with the rest of Lifesaving MB. There is little overlap between the two merit badges, and there is no requirement that Swimming be done before Lifesaving, but I would guess that the average SM would suggest to a Scout that he attempt Swimming MB before attemtping Lifesaving MB (unless, of course, the Scout would have already demonstrated a good amount of swimming proficiency already).



                        • #27
                          C!C! -- I like that. Outside of even my "outside the box" :-).

                          Here's another thought -- yes, the three aims are character, citizenship and fitness. Advancement is a method, just like Outdoors and Patrols are methods. But 7 or 8 out of 12 Eagle-required merit badges are, more or less, classroom merit badges and have little to do with the outdoors or patrols. A little incongruous? Room for improvement, no?

                          Rick/Kudu has been saying it to us for years, continually referring to B-P's "parlor Scouts".

                          Why would there be resistance to adding more Scoutcraft into Eagle? Aren't we Scouts and Scouters?



                          • #28
                            Guy, I think the resistance is there, and has been for years. Dating back to the '70s, there are factions of BSA pros and vols that simply don't like the outdoors. They like wearing the uniform, attending conferences and meetings, and sitting indoors for hours.

                            Whatever their motivation may be, the outdoors are a bother to them, and so are the people who like the outdoors.

                            Both parties used to coexist, more less, but the indoor folks are now in the majority. Exhibit A: Woodbadge. The pinnacle of adult scouter training...and the emphasis is on Management 101.

                            Tragic, in that scouting without outing is just a bore for most folks, who have better things to do than sit on a bench, watching ppt, and wearing a droopy over priced uniform.

                            PS CC! Your post is sublime--well done.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)


                            • #29
                              "but the indoor folks are now in the majority"

                              You may be right. But on the bright side... it makes the outdoors less crowded.


                              • #30

                                LOL, that is certainly true!