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Re: "Double-dipping"
Michael W. Firestone (tattu@EARTHLINK.NET)
Sat, 26 Dec 1998 19:21:41 -0800
Hi out there,being a new venturing advisor i totally agree with Bruce.Why on earth
would you make a scout prove him self twice.What are we trying to achieve by this ?
What are we teaching the youth? Mike Firestone I use to be an EAGLE.
Bruce E. Cobern wrote:
> At 08:29 PM 12/26/98 -0500, EC92@AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >Lets look at this concept.
> >
> >Can a Scout accumulate time in a leadership position for Eagle while he's
> >first class? No. He can accumulate time toward Star. Ditto with the service
> >projects, so far as I can recall, although I don't remember if they contain
> >that "while a x scout do x hours of service" or not and I do not have a
> >handbook around for reference.
>
> That is correct, these requirements specifically have to be done "while an X
> Scout," and he is when he is attempting to use the Venturing positions,
> totally in accordance with BSA advancement policy. However, BSA policy also
> is that, unless otherwise specified, Scouts can work on any requirement at
> any time. Thus, this prohibition is the EXCEPTION rather than the RULE.
>
> >Given the statement that I remember DOES exist for leadership positions for
> >rank above 1st class, I would guarantee that a youth could not double-dip in a
> >leadership position for both the BS advancement and Venturing at the same
> >time.
>
> On what basis could you guarantee that? If the purpose of that requirement
> is for the Scout to demonstrate that he possesses certain skills or
> personality characteristics, what is to be gained by requiring him to
> demonstrate those skill or characteristics twice, other than extracting a
> pound of flesh because somehow it seems "wrong" to allow the performance of
> one action to count towards two awards?
>
> We can go back to the CPR requirements for the various aquatics merit
> badges. If I follow your logic then a Scout who is working simultaneously
> at summer camp on both canoeing and rowing merit badges, possibly with the
> same counselor even, would have to demonstrate the same CPR twice within the
> one week of camp, because he couldn't "double dip." I think we all agreed
> back then that this would make no sense at all, so why does it make sense
> with holding a single position of responsibility that happens to qualify for
> both awards?
>
> >I would not allow it as an advisor and we will not be encouraging it when I
> >take over as the Exploring/Venturing District Chair on 1/1/99. This is a
> >simple concept described right there in the requirement "While a first
> >class/star/life/Eagle scout...".
>
> I'm curious on what basis you would refuse to accept that time in position
> for either award. Even if the Venturing program contains an "after having
> done X" statement, it would still be possible for the Scout to have met both
> the rank prerequisite for Eagle and the Venturing prerequisite for whatever
> Venturing award he is trying for.
>
> As much as you see it as being obvious that it SHOULDN'T count, I see it
> being just as obvious that it should. And, certainly, unless and until the
> requirements for either of these awards or both are changed to specifically
> preclude the double counting any Scout who is denied the use of the time for
> either award would win an appeal without even working up a sweat. The first
> one might have to go to national, but I think that district or council
> advancement committees, if they believe in the "you can't add to the
> requirements" doctrine (which I would hope they do) would quickly realize
> that there really is no question here.
> >
> >So I would SUGGEST to an Advisor with this situation that the youth has to
> >have an unscheduled Advisor's Conference to discuss priorities. Which is more
> >important, the new award he can earn until he's 21 or the BS ranks that cut
> >off at 18? It should become obvious real fast what needs to be done and in
> >which order. At best a youth entering at the EARLIEST age (a graduating 8th
> >grader who hasn't had his birthday yet) could advance by alternating ranks, at
> >worst an older youth should easily determine what needs to be done first.
>
> I would certainly agree that a wise advisor would counsel his Venturers who
> wish to work on Eagle while in the crew that it would be prudent to work on
> Eagle first, because there is an extra three years to earn the Venturing
> awards, but that need not include having him forego using things he is doing
> that meet Venturing requirements merely because they also meet Scouting
> requirements.
> >
> >Venturing National Committee meets in February. I am not on it but if its
> >serious enough a situation that this simple, obvious solution is not enough, I
> >can do what is needed to assure it is written into the future requirements. It
> >only takes the word of a few here off the list with details about WHY this
> >would be important and I'll make sure its in the right hands.
>
> Well, I would hope that they have already considered that, or that if they
> consider it now they would decide that extracting an extra pound of flesh
> from a young man accomplishes absolutely nothing other than to satisfy the
> "sense of propriety" of some Scouters who feel there is something inherently
> wrong with maximizing the return on investment of things done in Scouting by
> qualifying for more than one thing simultaneously.
>
> --
> Bruce E. Cobern
> mailto:bec@pipeline.com
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